excelsior accepted in ?? states - page 7

hi all just wonderin if anyone knew which states do or don't accept excelsior college? I think calif doesn't and colorodo is about to not accept them after the first of the year but other than that I... Read More

  1. by   Sheri257
    Quote from RN34TX
    Let me put it this way, if it really was patient care, something would have surfaced in the media by now. I'm just not buying that the patient care issues were kept sealed tight in Fort Knox, untouchable by any media, yet multiple members of the CA BNE, CNA, and Kaiser have documentation of all of this but somehow keep it sealed.
    No way. A story about "diploma mill" RN's working in CA hospitals hurting or killing patients is way too juicy for someone to not have uncovered by now.
    Not to mention that they have been working in CA hospitals for 30 some years before all of this started, but somehow slipped through the cracks during that entire time until the early 2000's. No way.

    You pose some interesting and thought provoking questions about what in fact, should CA do if what they are doing now isn't right or working.
    I won't pretend to have all of the answers here, but....

    Of all the states that have placed restrictions on EC, even the one's who copycatted CA shortly after their decision, CA is literally the only state that would reject an application from an experienced RN if they enrolled after the cutoff date, and literally ask them to go back to school and go through clinical rotations. That's the part that I think is insane.

    I'm sorry, but experienced RN's who can document satisfactory job performance do not need to go back to "Advanced" Med/Surg rotations.
    The other states recognize this, CA does not after the cutoff date.
    I don't know where you guys get this idea that the media picks up on everything. I worked in media for nearly 20 years ... both in newspapers and tv news ... before I decided to change careers and go to nursing school. Unless it's spoon fed to the media in a press release, or unless it involves a really famous person, the media misses a lot of stories. 60 Minutes, for example, always steals their stories from newspapers ... they never do any real reporting on their own.

    And, I'm not sure why you think a hospital is going to put out a press release about any problems they have with employees, whether they are EC grads or not. Even when there were allegations that employees yanked a ventilator off a woman so Michael Jackson could supposedly use it ... the hospital refused to comment because of HIPAA, even though they were constantly slammed in the press with unproven allegations.

    Seriously ... I'm sure you see things that happen in your facility all the time that might be "newsworthy." Do they actually get reported in the press? No. Most of the time, the families don't even know what's going on with their cases ... forget about the general public or reporters picking it up.

    As for the rest of it, you may be right about experienced RN's. But if you start making exceptions to the education standards, you render those standards meaningless. It really seems to boil down to the question ... Do we have education standards or not? And do they apply to all schools? The answer to both questions would usually be .... yes but, I guess you guys don't think so ...

    The standards aren't perfect and they probably need to be changed, but I don't think EC is the model for that. If anything, traditional schools need more clinicals, not less. With zero clinicals, I don't think EC is the solution here.

    And yes, I realize that California was late to act but, from what I heard (and this could be wrong) the program was originally designed only for LVN's. As other, non-LVN's were allowed into the program over the years, this is where the problems developed. The outrageous advertisements for MA's ... which were actually advertised as diploma mills ... also caught the board's attention. What can I say ... government can be slow to act and this wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last. But it has more to do with bureaucracy than anything else, really.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 11, '06
  2. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lizz
    As for the rest of it, you may be right about experienced RN's. But if you start making exceptions to the education standards, you render those standards meaningless. It really seems to boil down to the question ... Do we have education standards or not? And do they apply to all schools? The answer to both questions would usually be .... yes but, I guess you guys don't think so ...
    Illinois has stood by their policy of admitting experienced EC RN's, and CO and KS incorporated the same thing. I'm not seeing any problem here.
    That's not to even even mention the states that have different standards for prior LPN/LVN's. We're not MA's and nurse's aides becoming RN's. And someone in your case does need the clinicals, you're brand new to nursing altogether. I realize that students such as yourself may feel "cheated" in some sense by seeing others bypass what you have to go through, but you just don't have the background that someone like myself does.

    The standards aren't perfect and they probably need to be changed, but I don't think EC is the model for that. If anything, traditional schools need more clinicals, not less. With zero clinicals, I don't think EC is the solution here.
    I agree that EC is not the model for that either.
  3. by   Sheri257
    Quote from RN34TX
    Illinois has stood by their policy of admitting experienced EC RN's, and CO and KS incorporated the same thing. I'm not seeing any problem here.
    That's not to even even mention the states that have different standards for prior LPN/LVN's. We're not MA's and nurse's aides becoming RN's. And someone in your case does need the clinicals, you're brand new to nursing altogether. I realize that students such as yourself may feel "cheated" in some sense by seeing others bypass what you have to go through, but you just don't have the background that someone like myself does.
    I still think you're missing the broader point here, which goes far beyond traditional students who may feel cheated. Let's talk about your background because I think it's a good example of the broader point you may be missing here. What's good for one individual in the short run may not ultimately be good for the profession, or that same individual, in the long run.

    For example ... by your own account, you were an experienced LVN who didn't need to hassle with traditional education. You wanted to continue to work during school so EC was a good thing for you. You got your RN quicker and it was a good deal ... correct?

    But here's the problem with following the needs of the individual versus following the standards for the profession as a whole. Since EC doesn't follow these standards ... they've also accepted all of these non-LVN's or non-experienced LVN's that have led certain state boards and, as we've seen in recent threads, at least some employers to question the degree in one form or another.

    So while discarding the standards benefitted you and other EC students initially, it's also put you in a position where the validity of your degree is questioned because those standards were discarded. Ultimately there's a price one way or the other: pay now with the hassle of traditional school standards or pay later with people questioning the degree.

    Your argument is do what Illinois, Colorado and Kansas has done, which is suspend the standards as long as you practice somewhere else for awhile. But you're still suspending the standards ... and that ultimately hurts everybody in the profession. Just like EC allowing MA's, etc. hurt everybody in the program.

    Once you start making exceptions and suspending the standards for this person or that group, the standards are eroded and the value of everybody's degree goes down. Everybody loses.

    This is why California is right on this one and, quite frankly, the other states are wrong. Because, regardless of the arguments on what the standards should be, and the fact that the standards are inevitably flawed and always need to be improved ... every profession needs to follow standards, even if those standards don't always benefit every individual in the short run. Because ultimately, those standards do benefit the entire profession, and every individual within it, in the long run.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 12, '06
  4. by   mistylpn
    I am currently enrolled in the LPN to ADN program at EC. I am still a little skeptical about it because everyone has something different to say about it. Some people say that Alabama does not recognize EC and other people say they have friends who have been through the program and are now working as RNs. So I called the ABON and asked myself and was told that it is individually based. They would not say anything else. Any input would be helpful
  5. by   RN34TX
    Quote from mistylpn
    I am currently enrolled in the LPN to ADN program at EC. I am still a little skeptical about it because everyone has something different to say about it. Some people say that Alabama does not recognize EC and other people say they have friends who have been through the program and are now working as RNs. So I called the ABON and asked myself and was told that it is individually based. They would not say anything else. Any input would be helpful
    AL is very vague and we've tried to figure them out here as well.
    All I can say here is that I persoanlly have worked with two AL RN's who were EC grads. But they both were LPN/LVN's prior, so in light of the paramedic who was denied licensure, I gathered that being an LPN first made a difference in AL's decision to license them.

    But I really think that it's unfair to any potential AL students for the board to say "on a case by case basis" because that is extemely vague.
    They are basically saying that even two people with the same background could have different outcomes in licensure decisions depending on the board members mood on a particular day.
    I hate to use CA as an example, but they at least have a clear criteria and expectation and students in that state at least know what they will be up against prior to enrollment.
    AL needs a clearer criteria and standard.
  6. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lizz
    I still think you're missing the broader point here, which goes far beyond traditional students who may feel cheated. Let's talk about your background because I think it's a good example of the broader point you may be missing here. What's good for one individual in the short run may not ultimately be good for the profession, or that same individual, in the long run.
    Lizz,
    We'll just agree to disagree here, I guess.
    For me as an individual, your whole idea about my degree's value being lessened has not yet happened. The EC controversy only exists online in my life, it has never affected my professional life or any other EC grads that I've worked for or with.

    As I've mentioned before, I've even tried to probe the many travelers that I work with who have worked in CA.
    Most recently, one is an EC grad, the other is a traditional grad but says he is familiar with EC and has worked in CA with many EC grads, but both have been doing contracts in the SF and LA areas over the past 5-8 years and only came to TX to work because they were offered a sweet deal. (They'd have to in order to abandon the safety of staffing ratios, right?)

    But just like everyone else I've asked who worked in CA in recent years, they always respond with "I have no idea what you're talking about."
    Even the EC grad who had only somewhat of an idea that CA was changing it's requirements, never had any problems with employers or getting contracts.

    My conclusion is that this BB does the best job of over-sensationalizing "the end of Excelsior is coming soon."
  7. by   pedinurse05
    Quote from RN34TX
    Lizz,
    We'll just agree to disagree here, I guess.
    For me as an individual, your whole idea about my degree's value being lessened has not yet happened. The EC controversy only exists online in my life, it has never affected my professional life or any other EC grads that I've worked for or with.

    As I've mentioned before, I've even tried to probe the many travelers that I work with who have worked in CA.
    Most recently, one is an EC grad, the other is a traditional grad but says he is familiar with EC and has worked in CA with many EC grads, but both have been doing contracts in the SF and LA areas over the past 5-8 years and only came to TX to work because they were offered a sweet deal. (They'd have to in order to abandon the safety of staffing ratios, right?)

    But just like everyone else I've asked who worked in CA in recent years, they always respond with "I have no idea what you're talking about."
    Even the EC grad who had only somewhat of an idea that CA was changing it's requirements, never had any problems with employers or getting contracts.

    My conclusion is that this BB does the best job of over-sensationalizing "the end of Excelsior is coming soon."
    RN34TX,

    I moved here to CA in October. I had several hospital job offers and chose the one that suited my interests the most. They sold themselves to me--not me to them. I have had absolutely no problems with anyone questioning my ability. What I HAVE seen FIRST HAND is two traditional students (one in my orientation and one on my floor) not pass the NCLEX the first time--one took 6 tries and the other 2. Another nurse who went through a VERY extensive internship, had her orientation prolonged after this 6 month internship--and then was released because she couldn't grasp it and was unsafe. This entire CA thing is also only seen here--ONLINE!!! I am right here in southern CA and not ONCE has anything about EC even been brought up. Some people like to talk up what they don't like--but reality is--not one person I have encoutered at 7 different local hospitals gives a hoot. For the record, again, I was offered every hospital job I applied for...and that was around 7. This debate is dumb...ENUF said. Let the horse die along with the false advertising about EC grads not getting jobs here in CA. It is my own opinion and belief that some people like to argue and have too much time on their hands. I am lucky lately if I can even repond to a few posts let alone respond to EVERY post that has the word EXCELSIOR in it. I will believe that EC grads are having probs findng jobs when I hear it from multiple EC grads here in CA...not hearing it from students and non-EC grads....let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Does anyone remember in kindergarten when we would whisper in our neighbors ear and by the end of the line what was the original whisper was totally off??? That is why I think more first hand EC grads accounts will be more credible. My account is above--now if this thought was so widespread--why didn't someone say something at all theses hospitals????? The only thing they said was, "we would love to have you join our team!"
    Missy
    Last edit by pedinurse05 on Jan 12, '06
  8. by   Jo Dirt
    Quote from pedinurse05
    RN34TX,

    I moved here to CA in October. I had several hospital job offers and chose the one that suited my interests the most. They sold themselves to me--not me to them. I have had absolutely no problems with anyone questioning my ability....The only thing they said was, "we would love to have you join our team!"
    Missy
    I ditto what you have said. Furthermore, when I contacted the California BON personally, I was told that all applicants (including EC grads who enrolled after the magic date) are looked at on an individual basis and new EC grads don't just fall off the face of the earth when they come to California and that it is possible to become licensed in the state with an additional 360 documented clinical hours. This, of course, can be verified with a phone call by those who believe they know more than the members of the CBON and that this simply could not be true.

    Two of my instructors in LPN school in 1999-2000 were Excelsior graduates (and are still there) and I know countless other EC grads who are perfectly capable of doing their jobs. I have sort of a love-hate relationship with Excelsior, there are things about the program I don't agree with, but I cannot accuse them of turning out incompetent nurses. Every nurse I have met who graduated from Excelsior has never faced any kind of job discrimination.

    Like it or not, Excelsior is not going anywhere and there are literally armies of us out there.
  9. by   nicolel1182
    I called the CBON today and they said that they do ACCEPT the excelsior college, they just want us to meet the clinical and lab standards that traditional nursing student go thru, so they want EC grads to get the clinical experience and documented, plus the lab hours documented.

    I want to know what kind of college will accept you just to take there clinicals and lab and not theory and why go thru another year? It makes me sad because I wanted to do the excelsior program, but with my husband being a Marine, there is a good chance of being relocated to California.
  10. by   willtm
    You do not have to hold a CA license to work in a federal facility in any state. You can hold a NY license and get a job at the hospital on base or a veteran's hospital in California. Unless your husband plans to retire to CA I'd do it and if he gets stationed there find a job a federal facility.

    Just an idea



    Quote from nicolel1182
    I called the CBON today and they said that they do ACCEPT the excelsior college, they just want us to meet the clinical and lab standards that traditional nursing student go thru, so they want EC grads to get the clinical experience and documented, plus the lab hours documented.

    I want to know what kind of college will accept you just to take there clinicals and lab and not theory and why go thru another year? It makes me sad because I wanted to do the excelsior program, but with my husband being a Marine, there is a good chance of being relocated to California.
  11. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lizz
    This is why California is right on this one and, quite frankly, the other states are wrong.
    The other states are wrong? All of the 49 others?
    Everyone except for California is clueless about how bad EC is for the entire nursing profession?
    California is the only state that has secret files containing multiple accounts of EC grads making errors and killing people and apparantly won't share it's evidence enough to convince other states to follow their lead?

    Lizz, we were all nursing students at one time and as much as I try to understand where you're coming from......

    If there's one thing that I do know, it's that nursing students coming out of any program, EC or otherwise, who don't know what they are doing on at least a new grad level, definitely do hurt the profession.

    But I also know that there are people who disagree with their program based on nothing short of a personal or philosophical level, it has nothing to do with what's best for the entire nursing profession.
    They praise CA today because their ruling is simply in agreement with their own philosphophy, and take their word as gold as if they couldn't possibly be wrong, but will be quick to criticize them the day that their rulings don't match their own personal values.

    I admire your willingness to stick to your guns on this issue, and I think that all of us, CNA, LPN/LVN, RN, nursing student, whatever, have something valuable to add and be learned from here, so don't get me wrong here but....

    Your last post about what's best for the entire profession has prompted me to have to say that I think that you are starting to go way out of your scope of knowledge here.
    I just don't think that nursing students are in any position to be making any claims about "what's best for the entire profession."

    You're still learning the profession, let alone, have much insight about what's best for it.
    Last edit by RN34TX on Jan 14, '06
  12. by   pedinurse05
    Quote from nicolel1182
    I called the CBON today and they said that they do ACCEPT the excelsior college, they just want us to meet the clinical and lab standards that traditional nursing student go thru, so they want EC grads to get the clinical experience and documented, plus the lab hours documented.

    I want to know what kind of college will accept you just to take there clinicals and lab and not theory and why go thru another year? It makes me sad because I wanted to do the excelsior program, but with my husband being a Marine, there is a good chance of being relocated to California.
    Yes, the Board is saying they will allow EC grads after the magic date...but getting clinicals lined up seems to be the tricky part. There are good and bad nurses put out of all nursing students--CA chose the extreme decision....and with that decision went some skilled nurses that this state really needs. Working short is more dangerous than working with a competent EC grad.
  13. by   Sheri257
    Quote from RN34TX
    Your last post about what's best for the entire profession has prompted me to have to say that I think that you are starting to go way out of your scope of knowledge here.
    I just don't think that nursing students are in any position to be making any claims about "what's best for the entire profession."

    You're still learning the profession, let alone, have much insight about what's best for it.
    Well, this is a new low for you RN34TX. If you have to resort to personal attacks ... then you must be having some trouble formulating arguments on the merits.

    I don't know why you're bringing this up now when you already responded to the exact same post two days ago. I haven't posted anything since so, what has suddenly provoked this unwarranted attack?

    And I never used the phrase "what's best for the entire profession" nor did I use the word "best." So you're attacking me for things I didn't even say ... brilliant.



    I did say the standards benefit the entire profession. That is, afterall, why professions do have standards, or do you disagree with this as well. Read the post, again, and try to quote me accurately next time.

    I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist or, even an RN, to figure out that making a bunch of exceptions to the standards is not the ideal scenario for any profession. If you would actually like to debate that issue, rather than resort to personal attacks, let me know.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 14, '06

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