Should Healthcare Be Funded As A Basic Human Right? - page 7
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Dec 5, '12Quote from woohWell the whole problem with this entire, abliet multi-issued, arguement is both sides approach it as a black and white matter when in actuallity it is more of a grey area.So how do you (and others agreeing with you) respond to those who have said IN THIS THREAD, that they can't afford healthcare, even though they are working, not sitting around waiting for a handout?
There are those who do indeed wish for nothing more then their welfare check and free handouts, are useless in general to society as well as never paying a cent in taxes. However, there also those who like many hardworking middle class Americans, cannot afford quality healthcare but because they make more money then X dollar amount they are disqualified from free healthcare as well. Both sets of individuals are not more diserving of more rights, liberties or quality of life then the other under our current system of acceptable social views.
The problem is really where do we draw the lines? Who do we leave out and let in? Who gets stuck with the check? There really is no perfect answer.
Dec 5, '12One additional point about National Health Systems, several of my physician and nursing friends have been concerned about their "standard of living." In Canada, and several European countries, the providers actually make more than physicians/nurses in the US (adjusting for COL), report a better non-monetary quality of life, and have a better work/life balance because of being government employees instead of corporate employees. I will post the link once I find it.
As far as research and development, the world health organization has a great website, as do the sites for the Canadian and European equivalents of the NIH.
Dec 5, '12Quote from M.NurseHow about we all take care of each other and stop worrying about how much it's going to cost us? Maybe then we wouldn't have children starving to death while we throw enormous amounts of food in the garbage, or people dying of diseases we have medicine/cures for simply because they can't afford it...The problem is really where do we draw the lines? Who do we leave out and let in? Who gets stuck with the check? There really is no perfect answer.
What's really sad is that it is absolutely possible for there to be worldwide freedom from hunger, fear, poverty, most diseases and so on, but it will never happen because human beings are inherently selfish despite all those people who argue against evolution claiming that we are nothing like "monkeys" because of our higher intelligence, the most important of which is our ability to empatize, love and show compassion, yet we let our own people freeze to death on the street, let children starve to death, we fight with each over things that don't matter and it doesn't even have to be that way, we make it or allow it to be that way! But we can't change things because it's "too complicated", requires too much effort from us when we might have to miss the lates episode of American Idol or it might cost us a little extra in taxes even though we blow thousands each on nonsense items such as $800 purses and twenty pairs of shoes and eat out 5 days a week. Come on, do some of you people even listen to yourselves?
Our world is BROKEN people and it is only getting worse. You can't say you don't see it because it is right there in front of our faces everyday on the news, in the newspapers, the way we see other people behave these days and everytime we flip on any random channel on TV.
I find myself withdrawing more and more from society each year...within a few years I expect our farm to be completely self-dependent, we will have money and time set aside to help different local charities (because we ourselves had to learn how to work our way up from homeless and next year we will be college graduates thanks to help from only a few kind hearted people and government "handouts") but other than our few select friends, the only outside contact we will have to deal with will be employment. I don't even watch TV anymore, just movies with no commercials.
Sometimes my husband gets upset with me when I will take one of the only two dollars I have to bUy me something unimportant, like an energy drink or snack and give it to one of the random people begging on the corner by the local store. He says I've seen that guy at the store buying cigerettes or beer or whatever, and I tell him I don't care what he uses it for, he says he needs it and I have it so I GIVE IT, because others have given to me. I do not claim to be God so I cannot judge someone, I cannot claim to know someones life story or why the do or are the way they are...WHEN SOMEONE ASKS YOU FOR HELP YOU GIVE IT AND YOU DON'T ASK FOR ANYTHING IN RETURN, THAT'S THE MEANING OF GIVING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dec 5, '12Thank you for that article. I am stunned at some of the responses here. We work in the healthcare field. Do you even know how many people out there have 3 part time jobs to support their families, none of which offer healthcare. If they can barely make ends meet-how are they going to afford preventative medicine? How about those of us who have no insurance while in nursing school (half my class)? Too many people in this country file bankruptcy because of medical bills they cannot pay, although they would like to. Civilized countries (and some not so civilized) offer health care to their people. What is going on? Healthcare is not a handout. It's what we do to take care of each other.
Dec 6, '12All I know is that now I can afford health insurance. I'm now insurable in spite of having a pre-existing condition that I happened to be born with. I was on disability for several years due to that pre-existing condition. I worked very hard to get back into the work force even tho that meant losing medicare. I did go bankrupt once because I couldn't afford the medical bills. Now I'm insured. We'll see how long...
I would like to add that for most of my working life, my tax dollars have paid to other people's health insurance in the form of medicare, medicaid, etc. Yet I could not qualify for any of these programs because I chose to work for a living.Last edit by Fuzzy on Dec 6, '12 : Reason: more to add
Dec 6, '12Ok, It's not that I'm trying to insult you, I swear I'm not but this is very naive. To be clear, it is not ONLY elderly and disabled citizens who stay on medicaid for a very long time. Many of the recipients are able bodied, but do all they can to stay on it. I'll visit this quote in detail in another post. I don't want to crowd this one.Of course people try and take advantage of the system, I don't think anyone disagrees we should work to prevent this, but just preventing everyone from getting assistance isn't the answer. There are those who try and take advantage of the fact that we treat pain with opiates, does that mean we should stop treating patients in pain with opiates all together?
I never said we should prevent anyone from getting hospital care. I said they should be responsible for paying their own bill-even if it takes decades of payments. I just want them to take some ownership of it and not have it automatically paid in full by the rest of us. But the care itself should not be denied. If I led you (or anyone else here) to believe I thought this, I apologize.
That is a discussion for a different topic. I was simply addressing one of your comments. You lead me to believe that families of 4 who qualified for medicaid made $600 a month or less. I was simply bringing to your attention that the $600 a month is also (SIGNIFICANTLY) bolstered through other social programs.Still not sure where you're going with that. You're argument seems to be that it's not really that bad that some families only make $600 a month since they also get government assistance, yet you also seem to be arguing that they shouldn't get government assistance.
It ties into my statement that "those who truly cannot afford healthcare insurance qualify for medicaid." Even if they have to make less than $600 a month to qualify, I was just saying that it is not as bad as it sounds because they have other assistance that is added to that $600. And in this thread, I'm arguing that EVERYONE ELSE should not automatically get free healthcare. I was saying that those who qualified for medicaid were already taken care of. I wasn't making an argument they shouldn't be, unless they were abusing the system by purposely doing little to keep qualifying for it.
Dec 6, '12Quote from MunoRNThey are a major cause of bankruptcies. I'm not saying they're not. I was just saying how that atty sidestepped my question by throwing at me the one group who actually should qualify for his assistance, when my question was directed towards his irresponsible clients who he was helping get a clean slate.You lost me here, are you saying healthcare costs aren't a major cause of bankruptcies? Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy - Businessweek
Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN
I thought about this day after reading your statement that the ones who stay on medicaid are called "Elderly and disabled." Like the atty, you brought up a deserving group and umbrella everyone else with them to make it seem like it was ok for everyone to get what they got.
Dec 6, '12Quote from Conqueror+I was that previous poster, and that is not what I did. I compared many peoples PRIORITIES by bringing up how there are people who say they cannot afford to pay for healthcare on their own, yet those same people in many cases also have multiple vehicles they paid for, and cable with premium channels with high speed internet that they also somehow pay for each month. Please reread the post (Page 1) and be more wary when accusing other posters of "having a sickness that universal healthcare cannot cure."I think that it is selfish and entitled to believe that because YOU have insurance that people who do not should just suck it up or die. A previous poster compared healthcare or an education to cable TV and owning two cars. That attitude represents a sickness in this country that universal healthcare coverage cannot fix.
Dec 6, '12Quote from Esme12The Boldface. THIS is the message I'm trying (and failing miserably) to send, albeit less tactfully.I have been an emergency room nurse for a really looonnngg time. There has always been those that abused the system and we have always seen those who didn't really have an emergency or see a doctor with regularity.....those who have had no prenatal care, wanted drugs and the local lushes especially when it is cold outside. I used to go to work and stop at local fast food restaurants and get left over food for the homeless in the winter for their warm meal......we cared for them. The ED....at least in the inner city, has always been the urgent care that is open for 24 hours.
What I have a problem with is the sense of entitlement.......but I do believe that as a leader of the free world we have an obligation to provide healthcare to our under served population. We have the obligation to stop the fraud and abuse....not punish those truly in need or those who have paid for medicare their entire live only to have it limited when they need it most.
Dec 6, '12Quote from marythenurseI can tell you how to lower healthcare cost my an incredible amount-Change the laws so that it is not so ridiculously lucrative to sue health care providers. Period. If that ever happened insurance rates can plummet!I just would like to know how we and our children, grandchildren... are going to pay for this? We will not get our debt under control until we stop spending and if over 50% of the voting public is dependent on entitlements we are going down in flames. Maybe the answer is to look at why medical care is so costly? Are insurances and gov. insurance pushing up prices? It seems to me that whenever government gets involved prices go up and quality goes down. This is a complicated subject. It is all well and good to say this is a right or that is a right but we need to be realistic about how we fund programs. We have not been so in the last 40 yrs or more.
Dec 6, '12Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSEDWell you expect them to work and take care of themselves but how do you expect them to get to work if you feel they shouldn't have two cars? Not all towns have public transportation and if both work, which they usually have to just to get by even with assistance, then they must have two vehicles. And you need to call up your local doctors office and ask them the cost, without insurance, for just one visit that includes an exam and vaccines for a child, or an exam and blood testing, etc for a diabetic then call up the pharm and find out how much diabetic supplies cost without insurance and see if that compares in ANYWAY to an $60-80 a month cable/internet bill.I compared many peoples PRIORITIES by bringing up how there are people who say they cannot afford to pay for healthcare on their own, yet those same people in many cases also have multiple vehicles they paid for, and cable with premium channels with high speed internet that they also somehow pay for each month."
I have had to go without TV (and a heck of a lot more than that)....after coming home from working all day and just want to relax but no TV and no books cause I can't afford them and there is not a local library in town. On my days off no money for gas, no money for food, no TV, no where to walk to, nothing to read....I guess I should just sit and stare and the wall or work 15 hrs a day 7 days a week (even if my employer would allow it). No wonder poor people are so depressed and suffer from health issues related to over stress, over worked, chronically depressed and anxious, malnourished...they need the healthcare almost more than those who have insurance yet have no access to it. No wonder they can't work up the energy to dig themselves out of the deep, dark and depressing hole they are in and instead, exhausted and helpless, resort to pills and alcohol just to get by.
Dec 6, '12Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSEDOr better yet, how about we stop big pharm and the medical supply companies and the hospitals from charging $60 for a $2 bag of IV fluids or $2000 for an MRI and so on. It is possible to make a profit without trying to rob the public blind and get away with it.I can tell you how to lower healthcare cost my an incredible amount-Change the laws so that it is not so ridiculously lucrative to sue health care providers. Period. If that ever happened insurance rates can plummet!
Dec 6, '12Quote from woohPlease think about that...So how do you (and others agreeing with you) respond to those who have said IN THIS THREAD, that they can't afford healthcare, even though they are working, not sitting around waiting for a handout?
We have people on this forum who are working, yet can't afford health insurance. WORKING, and have no health insurance! WORKING, and have no health insurance. WORKING, and have no health insurance. WORKING, and have no health insurance. Yet you believe it is ok to fund the healthcare of those who don't even lift a finger to help themselves?
Does that really sound right to you? I'm asking.