Is Health Care a Right?

kmchugh · Feb 3, 2003

Originally posted by JMP
I think no matter what either side comes up with...the other side can not be swayed.

Kevin, you and I will have to agree to disagree.....since most of what you posted I disagree with and I am sure you feel the same way about my posts...as you pointed out.

Reading your posts Kevin, I can see you where raised differently and your values and judgements are proof of that. Your country hold different things close to your hearts....like your constitution, freedom and liberty for all.

I think that we ( this is going to be a problem I know) "we" (society) owe it to those less fortunate ( children, aged, sick) to make sure they have access to base line health care needs. But again, I have to remind myself, this is a Canadian's point of view.

Actually, I can be swayed easily, by facts that controvert or override what I have said. Normally, I accept an agreement to disagree, but JMP, you came up on this topic and insulted me, and all those who agree with me, in spite of (or perhaps because of) whatever reasoning we offered. Remember "greed and self indulgence?"

So, I'll challenge you to point out exactly what I have said that is either greedy or self indulgent. Why is it greedy to want to keep some of what I make for the welfare of my own family? Why is it self indulgent to want to have some money left over after paying my bills to be able to put away for retirement? Or does it become greedy and self indulgent to complain about the spiraling cost of increasing numbers of entitlements for those "less fortunate," and to wonder where it will all end? When is enough enough? (Another question you neatly sidestepped.)

Think about what you say before you say it. Before calling other people names, think about what they are saying, and that they may have a valid grievance. Supporting those who cannot support themselves is a necessary thing for a society to do. However, questioning where the line is drawn for inability to be self supporting is also necessary.

Kevin McHugh

Edited to add: I would tell the same things to Chigap, but she has not come back up on this topic since I took her to task for being equally insulting.

JMP · Feb 4, 2003

Kevin

I think your post smacks of verbal bullying. You will have a difficult time indeed, taking me to task.

You have to understand Kevin that I live in a different country with VERY different values. We share somethings, but so many are different.

Health care is one of the great differences. (But only one). I live in a society where health care is a right, and every person receives it, regardless.

To me, in my opinion, to not want that right shared amongst all citizens is selfish and singleminded. I work full time and believe me, no one takes "everything" I have so everyone else can have something........this kind of thinking is silly and, again in my opinion selfish.

If you find my thoughts, writings offensive, then shall be it. Put me on your ignore list, refrain from reading my posts, do something, but don't ever think I will back down because you don't like what I say, or try to take me to task....... as I said in an earlier post, agreeing to disagree would be the more reasonable route.

I truely hope your country can come to turns with universal health care, every person deserves health care......it is a basic human right. Again, a Canadian's view.

Sally_ICURN · Feb 4, 2003

In my opinion, I think a lot of times the "words" a person uses to say something can make it sound different-different sometimes in what they actually mean or the picture they are trying to draw. In the case here, using the words me, mine, my, I, like why should "I" pay more or it's not "my" responsibility to make sure people... It does sound self-centered as the way "I" see it, "we" are all in this healthcare mess "together" and the vast majority of people in this country are paying for this crisis together, it's not just "your" money or "my" money, it's "our" money. Some individuals, by the nature of the words they choose to use, make it sound as though THEY are shouldering all the burden! It sounds selfish, even though that might not be the case.

Q. · Feb 4, 2003

Originally posted by Sally_ICURN
Some individuals, by the nature of the words they choose to use, make it sound as though THEY are shouldering all the burden! It sounds selfish.

No one shoulders all of the burden, this is true. But certain individuals carry the lion's share of it. I think that is what we are aiming it. The unfair burdens placed on certain members of society. If we all carried the same burden, it would be different, I think.

Sally_ICURN · Feb 4, 2003

Originally posted by Susy K
If we all carried the same burden, it would be different, I think.

In an ideal world yes, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. In the meantime, we MUST find something else that works for the benefit of EVERYONE because regardless of who pays what, it's not working and will only get worse.

What about hospitals themselves watching costs? Why are doctors ordering treatments that cost thousands of dollars for patients who have a next to nil chance of survival? Four thousand dollar/bag IV drips, specialized beds, intense complicated expensive monitoring. I see it all the time and it happened again this last weekend at my hospital. It made absolutely no sense what was being done to this poor 81 year old gentleman. He's not going to make it and no matter how much I protested, the doc's minds were set. I even had other ICU docs from another team on my side saying the guy needed the chaplian, not such and such treatment. Short of going to the ethics commitee, how can we draw the line? Where do families decide to say enough is enough? I don't blame the families for continuing care but they need to be told flat out - it's only going to prolong the suffering. Should we even give families the option in these types of cases? Wasteful, wasteful, wasteful. Bioethics at it's best.

KP RN · Feb 4, 2003

Ok, then let's restrict ICU beds to folks under the age of 70 years old, huh?? Oh, yes. that is certainly a far less greedy and self absorbed way to confront the health care insurance crisis here the USA...

KP RN · Feb 4, 2003

Why don't we agree on a quick, easy cheap solution to treating our nations elderly, Sally??

Let's bring back the gas chamber and turn on the cyanide, like World War II!!

Sally_ICURN · Feb 4, 2003

kp - do you even have a clue as to what i'm talking about? do you support futile care? would you want your grandmother used as a living, breathing classroom experiment? a lot of times that's exactly what it seems like. i never nor would i ever say that the elderly shouldn't receive care. your post is extremely inflammatory.

KC CHICK · Feb 4, 2003

Sally...I completely understand what you're talking about. Why, just last night, I had a discussion with an RT that was frustrated that she had orders to give RT TX to a DYING MAN. Yes, he was dying. NO CODE, comfort care only. He passed away only a few hours after our discussion.

What is the point of performing these expensive tx and filling them full of expensive IV medications when they are not expected to live to next week, let alone tomorrow??

A few months ago I got a patient from the ER that was not expected to make it through the night. She lasted only five hours after she made it to my floor. The ER doc made sure to order RT TX for this woman. :rolleyes:

She received one tx before she died. It made absolutely no difference as to the outcome of this patient. It's a waste of time, resources, and money. Just adding to the rapidly rising cost of healthcare.

Anne:nurse:

New CCU RN · Feb 4, 2003

It is hard to draw the line. However, day by day I treat inmates who are getting the best of care, getting their CABG's and other expensive ICU stays all at the cost of you and I. Then we have those we are on Welfare and whose families demand we do absolutely everything to prolong the life of their family member who is vent dependant and is NOT ever getting off that vent.

Yet the families still insist they are a full code.... absolutely everything must be done. Keep in mind...you and I are paying for this. Then there are the babies.... who are born to the coked out moms who are on their fifth child and who the govt is paying for the other four seeing as they no longer are in the custody of this woman. And we do everything to prolong this life..... keeping this poor child alive making yet another problem for society.....

Health care is not a right. While I do think that every child deserves well-care, ought to get penicillin for their infection. I don't think that we as a society should be responsible for these enormous, heroic efforts..... for nothing. Everytime a GIB comes into my ICU..... and we dump 50-60 units of blood into their body all so they can make it out and start up their drinking aqain, all at the cost of the hard working citizens ...... I see something wrong with this.

I think we should provide care to the elderly (excluding heroic measures), to children, and that those who are in the middle make some sort of effort to contribute to society. But if you don't...why should we prolong the problems that lowlife inmates are causing?????

I am not saying that every person that isn't making enough to support themselves is a lowlife....don't get me wrong. It is unfortunate that their are hardworkign families that have trouble making it by, get caught up in medical bills while some inmate or some drug addict can get the best of care..... at the cost of those hardworking families. There are so many problems with our health care system... I don't know where it can even start to be fixed...actually ..yeah I do....

OzNurse69 · Feb 4, 2003

I remember going to the accountant with my father (a farmer) when I was in my teens, & watching him write out a HUGE cheque for his tax bill. I asked him something along the lines of "don't you ever begrudge paying such a large amount of money to the Govt, when you won't ever benefit from it?"

His response?? I quote here, because it is still burned in my brain -- "Sweetheart, every year when I pay my tax bill, I thank God that I make enough money to have to pay tax. And the next year when it increases, I thank Him again. If I didn't have to pay tax, THEN I'd be worried!!"

......something to think about......:kiss to everyone!!

Sally_ICURN · Feb 4, 2003

With the topic of futile care aside for a moment, the thread keeps coming back to society's "outcasts." Should we just make all of these "outcasts" no-codes and just keep on walking by when we see them falling to the ground clutching their chest or laying in a pool of their own emesis? What about that child of a crack mom who's outside playing well after she should be and gets struck by a car? We'd have people dying all over the streets of our cities. I'm sure then it would turn into who's going to pay to dispose of the body and clean up the mess!

I think the issue of people who, for whatever reason, don't have health insurance needs to be removed from the debate. It's nothing new. The question turned from "is healthcare a right" to "who has the right to healthcare." It should be about a mismanaged, improperly used healthcare system and what to do to repair it so there's some equity for all.

It's intangible and completely unrealistic to exclude only certain people from care.