Importing Foreign-trained nurses - page 5
Importing Foreign-trained Nurses Comparison of Pending Legislation on Nursing Immigration Issues 11/05/01 "The American Nurses Association (ANA) has posted a chart which compares two bills... Read More
Nov 18, '01There certainly are not enough nurses according to ICN - what constitutes a nurse ? Certainly we are looking at qualitative nurses with the skills at University level in both theory and practice, and not quantitively. Nurses arriving in US as in UK are expected to have good knowledge of English and pass a three month adaptation programme if not longer.
Immigrants must be welcomed and encouraged to settle there are good and bads in all societes.
Our countries have and are colonial powers and we have a duty to others, to educate etc. Don't forget lack of investment in undeveloped countries and their personnel can only lead to strife and the unjustified jealousy we see now.
Facing staff shortages daily in the workforce of nursing in uk we welcome foreign nurses.
Nov 18, '01Larry,
Is your staff shortage related to wages or working conditions?
We have licensed nurses that have found something other than bedside nursing to do because of the problems that are being addressed only by ignoring them. That is at the heart of the problem here.
Nov 18, '01Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
White and middle class?
Discrimination is an inequality, not a skin color. If you get into the "minority" college or any other one on a scholarship, it has to do with your income first, then your choices are further limited by your skin color.
Brad, you are misinformed. Allow me to respond to your assumption with some facts. There is a concerted effort to desegregate so-called "minority" colleges or (HBCU)Historically Black Colleges and Universities as they are known by the rest of the country. To that end, scholarships have been set aside just for White students and the only requirement needed for the scholarship is White skin. Income is not an issue. This is going on all over the country. Some HBCU are now majority White. Go figure!
Oh, don't take my word for it. I like to back up my statements with facts. See for yourself:
Scholarships for Whites
Whites at Black Colleges
Nov 18, '01NRSkarenRN, thanks for the warm welcome. I enjoy the exchange of ideas here and appreciate the differing opinions.
JT, yeah I just heard about Lolita Compas' election to the presidency of the New York State Nurses Association. She is a tremendous source of encouragement for the Filipino American community.
Larry, Thanks for your insights. I have a number of classmates, friends and relatives recruited to work as nurses in the U.K. They are doing fine as far as I know. I've read some unfortunate stories of other Filipino nurses in the U.K. but I am glad the British government is looking into this. I agree with
you. We need to be focusing on improving the working conditions for nurses. Every single day that I go to my workplace, I have to muster enough courage and pray for strength and wisdom. I remember working in the nursing home for three years here in Durham and having to endure poor staffing and/or increasing workload. It was not easy. I can still vividly remember saying to myself when I was just two months in the U.S. and newly licensed in NC, "Is this what nursing practice in the U.S. is?" referring to being assigned to and being responsible for 60 patients and being in charge for the entire facility as I was the only R.N. in the building. I notified the R.N. supervisor on call but I only got some reassurances that I'll do just fine. I survived that night shift but I was so overwhelmed. After a talk with the Director of Nursing, I did not have to do that again. Over a period of time, the Filipino nurses were becoming overworked , underpaid and the contracts were breached. Consequently, some of my Filipino colleagues brought the issue to the Department of Labor and the latter ruled that the nursing home pay back each Filipino nurse a lump sum equivalent to the months or even years of undercompensation. Soon after that, the nursing home became more equitable.
Brad, I think the author of said reasearch chose the word racism and prejudice in reference to the segregation, poor working and living conditions, anti-miscegenation laws and racial violence happening in that particular period in US history. They are well documented too. Of course, people use different words depending on the degree to which they feel strongly toward an issue.
I share every U.S. nurse's struggle toward professionalization. I might be from another country but I feel and experience everyday the rigors of a demanding profession. I believe that corporate America and the government need to recognize the hard work and vigilance of today's U.S. nurses. I loathe the audacity of people in the healthcare industry that take advantage of cheap, imported labor. This exploitative strategy is unethical and unAmerican. We do need to take care of the nurses already in this country because this vicious cycle is only gonna get worse. We all remember the downsizing of the mid-90's. A lot of U.S. nurses including newcomers recruited abroad at the height of the nursing shortage felt like discarded lemons. I think our fight is a long one but we need to band together to overcome. Our efforts have long been stymied by various factors some even beyond our control. Let our fight not be against each other but against the real, identified enemies.
My 2 cents,
ReggieLast edit by reggiedoc on Nov 19, '01
Nov 19, '01This is a bit of a late reply to jt.. but I've been on hols:
EXCUSE ME for having an opinion but not having the answers to everything. Now, we have exactly the same problems as you guys in the US with regards to money, staffing, etc. BUT....... I make AU$46,000 pa, working full time, including penalties. Last time I looked, a nurse in the US could make about US$45,000 with the equivalent level of responsibility (yes?? Please correct me if I'm wrong). AND...... last time I looked, the exchange rate was about 50c US : $1 AU. SO, JT, DON'T WINGE TO ME ABOUT BEING UNDERPAID, BECAUSE YOU MAKE DOUBLE THE AMOUNT THAT I DO!!
Oops, sorry, just reread and I sound really b!tchy, don't I?? Had a rotten day, think I'll go to bed now, hopefully wake up happier in the morning.Last edit by OzNurse69 on Nov 19, '01
Nov 19, '01Oh, don't take my word for it. I like to back up my statements with facts. See for yourself:
There's no reason to be snotty. I have only observed an inequality for the last ohhh.....ALL OF MY LIFE!
I can only express my condolences for the passing of the torch of racial discrimination.
I tend not to believe everything I see on the internet, but I do believe anythings possible from those idiots on capitol hill.
Do you believe there should be a college scholarship based on skin color alone?
Do you believe blacks and whites should be segregated or what?
I don't understand why you took all the time to post links, and then not discuss the issue. Is your oppinion just as unpopular?
Just because I didn't do web research or spend the day in a library to compile facts like I was going to court before I ever so carefuly posted, is no reason to slam me. I was only stating the facts as I have experienced them. How would I know about something that's going on in frigging Missippi? How would I know about Traditional Black Colleges? There's no White Scholarship at the college I go to and I have never seen or heard of one in any place I have ever lived. I have visited hundreds of websites about scholarships and I subscibe to several news services...............Still, I have never heard of such a thing.
Why are you holding me accoutable for it?
I think getting a scholarship based on your skin color alone is disgusting.
Nov 19, '01what are you all talking about?
"black colleges", "white scholarships" are we living in the same year? 2001? same planet? the earth? ok, different continents and countries, but still!!
i can't believe this! am i that blue-eyed! wow!
and know something, i am training rn's from eastern countries at the moment, they have to do a year of training here, before they are allowed to work as rn (they can work as nurses aides, what most of them do)
the simple reason for most of them to go abroad is money!!
and know something, i understand them.
do you know what the average icome for a rn (and for other better trained people) is, in moldavia? no i tell you, it is
$30 a month .
take care, renee
(i am not going to complain about my wages for a long time!)
Nov 19, '01Rennee,
$30 a month!
I don't think anyone here is planning on attending a program in Moldovia on a full scholarship!
I think the hospital management wants to copy thier business plan though!
In a bunker somewhere on an undisclosed continent.
Nov 19, '01There has always been a shortage in the UK. The present shortage is due to pay. Nurses within NHS have to work nights as well as days. There are no just nights so the inflexibility is part to blame. Now entrants to nursing are all in higher education - students spend less time on the wards and thus their manpower is absent. The Enrolled nurse who did a practical course of two years has been wound up. And of course there are shortages.
Older nurses experience is not being recognised and honestly nurses are stressed.
To finish your degree and be offered peanuts - then nursing isn't appealing as a career. WE WANT MORE MONEY!
Nov 20, '01<<SO, JT, DON'T WINGE TO ME ABOUT BEING UNDERPAID, BECAUSE YOU MAKE DOUBLE THE AMOUNT THAT I DO!!
Oops, sorry, just reread and I sound really b!tchy, don't I?? Had a rotten day, think I'll go to bed now, hopefully wake up happier in the morning.>>
I live in NYC so I probably make more than double your salary. I have no complaints with my salary - not even with the relatively higher cost of living here. I do want a better pension, though & thats the next battle at my facility. I dont know which post exactly youre referring to with the "underpaid" comment but I am not "winging". I am stating fact. There are states in this country where RNs are earning $10 - $11 per hour. (Our security guards earn more than that). Full time work is around 1950 hours per year I think. Do the math & it isnt anywhere near $45k. I have no problem with the salaries in my city. But when I say nurses here are not paid adequately, I dont mean in my city - I mean in my country.
Nurses in every city should have salaries as good as ours in NYC. But those salaries werent just handed to us. We and our state nurses association fought for them with every contract. Our salaries represent 30 yrs worth of collective bargaining - improving & improving until they got to where they are now & now its the going standard industry rate here.... but its not $45k in NYC...its more like $55 - $60k.
Until other nurses start fighting for comparable salaries in their cities, nothing will change for them. Youre coming up with an average which comes out higher because it includes cities like mine where nurses are paid well. Look at salaries city by city & you will see a great discrepancy. Not many nurses in this country are earning what you are earning. Neither of you are being paid what you are worth. It sounds like youre saying that nurses in the US should not object to their continued salary compression because nurses in other countries are paid even less. Lets just chalk that one up to lack of sleep. ; )
Nov 20, '01<<but wouldn't it be easier to just bring in some "nurses" from other countries and hang thier temporary visas over thier heads?>>
YES!! And THATS why the American Hospital Association is over in DC spending billions of $$$ lobbying hard to push through laws the ANA & others are fighting against that would allow facilities to do just that on an even greater scale than they ever have before.
The idea IS to not spend any real resources fixing up the place - just bring over people who HAVE to keep the job once they take it no matter what.
The law is that these nurses must be paid the same & given the same benefits as any other staff RN. That however hasnt stopped employers from violating those rules before. Several have been fined & have had to pay back wages to those nurses,.... but only after these facilities were caught & turned in to the authorities.
Nov 20, '01Jt,
Yes, right on.
As I was stating in my posts thus far(the above quote is from one of mine), it is thier intention. The end-game.
There will be cries of racism against those who oppose any bill that targets money for immigration. That's because they really don't have an argument about the issue. They are in favor of it but can't articulate a good argument(because there isn't one) and the race card is what they play if they don't have a hand to show. I was repeatedly pummeled with it even though other posters made the argument that I wasn't saying anything racist. They were not responded to. When I would ask them a direct question pertaining to the issue they would fall silent. That's how you beat the race card. I don't know how that would be done in a political sense, but it seems the hospitals pushing for the bill will have to make some argument. It only makes sense that they will put a racial or humanitarian spin on it because that's what people that are too lazy to think for themselves usually fall for. Those people are the constituents of those that would oppose it.
I think that the poster that you quoted about the wages being so low was inferring that we should give them a chance(foreign nurses) to have a better oppourtunity. That would fall under the humanitarian angle.
Fine let them come. I've got no problem with that. I just don't want to pay for it. They already have that. It's just not funded by new legislation. The welfare system is already well suited with special exemptions for those that either aren't or wont become U.S. citizens.
As long as there are people like you to bring it to the attention of those that will listen with thier heads instead of thier hearts and see past the rhetoric. Then at least we'll have a fighting chance.
Middle class America
Nov 20, '01<<When I would ask them a direct question pertaining to he issue they would fall silent. That's how you beat the race card>>
Dear Mr. Peeps, I was told that I was not welcome on this site, however it did not mean that I was barred from reading what is posted on this site. I hope that I will not be stepping on too many peoples toes by posting this one last time. In saying that you were saying some rather racist things might have been a tad harsh, I had an issue with the way you kept refferring to these poor, ignorant minorities (American) my issue was not that of the foreign nurses and their education, or lack thereof as perceived by some.
In these poor communities where they have these scores and scores of scholarships for these poor minorities so that they can try to get an education, am I ignorant enough to think that might help in the push for 'American' nurses? Why then criticize the minorities for trying to get an education with help whether it be as an CNA or anything else, an educated country is a powerful country.
And like I said before, in earlier posts I may have vented, but in someone I know being a foreign nurse who was treated badly and said enough was enough, as other foreign nurses would say too, sometimes just because you were offered what you think is a cushy job and it ends up being a place where they treat you like crap and use you like a donkey it doesn't mean you will take forever. Okay I've said my piece, Mr. Peeps, you can lambast me as much as you want, I'm sure that is your strong opinion and you are very much entitled to it.