Controversial Michael Moore Flick 'Sicko' Will Compare U.S. Health Care with Cuba's - page 34

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  1. by   HM2VikingRN
    but the doctor working ER at King had an obligation to treat that baby and try to save her life.
    I think that this incident in and of itself illustrates why a single payer system is the right answer. There was no good reason that that child should not have been effectively treated in place. Moving her from hospital to hospital for insurance reasons made absolutely no sense.

    (I haven't seen the movie yet)
  2. by   HM2VikingRN
    Quote from Sheri257
    True but, I have to admit that Moore's film has inspired me ... and I'm now looking into retiring in France.

    Not that I think France is utopia but, I wouldn't mind living in a place that at least tries to help people. It's getting to the point that the U.S. is so cold hearted ... what have I got to lose? Might as well try something different.

    :typing
    We could easily adopt the french model of insurance. Better outcomes at lower prices.
  3. by   HM2VikingRN
    Quote from fronkey bean
    It doesn't change my position which is "will UHC reduce 'barriers' more than modifying our curent syst?" . I am not yet convinced that it will. Will UHC make the majority of Americans lives better? I'm not sure it will.
    Compare the health outcomes between MN and Wi (both states with essentially universal coverage to those of Texas or Fla.) UHC does correlate to better outcomes in health, education and economic outcomes.

    Some critics are blasting Moore for painting an overly utopian picture of health care in Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba. But the critics dodge the fundamental difference between health care in those countries and health care in America: the difference in values. In America, while charity is good, the bottom line is each person's health care is their responsibility. You're on your own. In the countries that Moore examines with universal care, health care is a shared responsibility, and the notion that everyone pays into a system that provides for the needs of everyone is not any more questioned than is the concept in America that we all pay for the military and police services that protect us all.
    That is the broader discussion that "Sicko" promotes, not just what should we do about the 49 million uninsured in America but what do we do about the overwhelming majority of Americans who have health insurance but do not have health assurance—who could find, as I did recently, that a doctor can prescribe a medical procedure to protect your health, but, to borrow Bush's words, "an insurance bureaucrat can make medical decisions."
    http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/sic...sick_show?tx=3
    Last edit by HM2VikingRN on Jul 4, '07
  4. by   BBFRN
    Quote from spacenurse
    I think Michael Moore was wrong when he blamed Kaiser for the death of the little girl. Her mother called 911. At the MLK hospital ERthe doctor diagnosed her baby and called Kaiser for authorization to treat.
    Kaiser told the ER doc to have the baby brought by private car to Kaiser hospital. The mother begged them to treat her baby at the hospital where she was. She was escorted out as a "threat"

    Whoever answered the phone at Kaiser made a mistake but the doctor working ER at King had an obligation to treat that baby and try to save her life.
    That beautiful little girl would be 15 years old if she had lived.

    MM is not a nurse or doctor. He blamed only Kaiser.

    BUT it is clearly his opinion.
    I agree with you. I also think the Dr. had a bigger obligation to treat that baby, and I wonder why EMTALA wasn't considered here.
    http://www.emtala.com/faq.htm
  5. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from Tweety
    Fair enough. I'd support a change that helps us all.

    I think to the middle class are affected. A good deal of uninsured are working class people. Many working people have the option of insurance but between child care, car payments, high rents, property taxes and homeowners insurance rates can't afford 200 to 400 per month, and take the risk of going without. I've seen posts on this board "I'm having stomach pains, but have no insurance and can't go to the doctor, I'm s tudent, what should I do." (Naturally those threads are shut down.) I myself went uninsured while in nursing school and working nearly full time for low wages for five years.
    Been there as well, my oldest didn't have coverage until he was 12. The working uninsured are I think the hardest hit. They maked too much for gvt. aid but too little for pvt insurance or a md visit. Catastrophic insurance is affordable but certainly doesn't cover routine care that can prevent serious illness. I'm not much on gvt interferance in business, but I really think, given the benefits of healthy workers, that all business should be required to provide group insurance and the gvt should help small businesses for which this would be a hardship.
  6. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from HM2Viking
    Compare the health outcomes between MN and Wi (both states with essentially universal coverage to those of Texas or Fla.) UHC does correlate to better outcomes in health, education and economic outcomes.


    http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/sic...sick_show?tx=3
    You gave another MM is the best site butnotone where I can find those stats you were talking about at the beginning of your post. Could you direct me to where I can find those? Thanks
  7. by   Sheri257
    Quote from HM2Viking
    We could easily adopt the french model of insurance. Better outcomes at lower prices.
    I wasn't convinced that Moore was right about this until I read an article in Business Week that pretty much said the same thing. Business Week isn't exactly a liberal publication and in their analysis, they said the French system wasn't perfect but they did find it was far better.

    However, I'm also convinced it will never happen in this country because, obviously, the healthcare profiteers have a strangehold on the government.

    :typing
  8. by   BBFRN
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4042072.htm

    Data regarding wait times in the U.S.

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems."

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]If you find a suspicious-looking mole and want to see a dermatologist, you can expect an average wait of 38 days in the U.S., and up to 73 days if you live in Boston, according to researchers at the University of California at San Francisco who studied the matter. Got a knee injury? A 2004 survey by medical recruitment firm Merritt, Hawkins & Associates found the average time needed to see an orthopedic surgeon ranges from 8 days in Atlanta to 43 days in Los Angeles. Nationwide, the average is 17 days."

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]26% of U.S. adults in one survey went to an emergency room in the past two years because they couldn't get in to see their regular doctor, a significantly higher rate than in other countries."

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]only 47% of U.S. patients could get a same- or next-day appointment for a medical problem, worse than every other country except Canada."

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]51% of sick Americans surveyed did not visit a doctor, get a needed test, or fill a prescription within the past two years because of cost. No other country came close."
  9. by   BBFRN
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4042070.htm

    Here is a pretty balanced article on the French system. It does have its pros & cons.
  10. by   Sheri257
    Quote from CRNI-ICU20
    I mention just a few of these, because the REALITY is, there is no such place. No matter where you go, you are going to find corruption, people who lie, people who sway the masses with only one-sided argument.
    This is what I've told myself over and over again when I think about what's wrong with America. Well ... I tell myself ... it's probably the same everywhere else, right?

    But, I think what was so thought provoking with Moore's movie was the idea that maybe it's not as bad in other countries. Maybe it's possible that there are some governments that actually try to help people ... probably because their voters demand it.

    In our culture, it's profit at the expense of everything else, and the people pretty much accept it. We do spend more on healthcare than anyone else yet our population still has to pretty much fend for themselves because the profiteers get most of the money.

    P.S. You forgot about gay bashing which, IMO, was another one of the great scapegoats for the 2004 election. Afterall, if we kept gays from getting married that would somehow solve all of our other problems ... right?

    People are dying from lack of healthcare but, don't worry about that ... gotta go after the gays instead.

  11. by   HM2VikingRN
    Quote from fronkey bean
    You gave another MM is the best site butnotone where I can find those stats you were talking about at the beginning of your post. Could you direct me to where I can find those? Thanks
    see http://allnurses.com/forums/f287/hea...ml#post2147989

    vs.

    http://allnurses.com/forums/f287/lea...es-217963.html
    Last edit by HM2VikingRN on Jul 4, '07
  12. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from HM2Viking
    Compare the health outcomes between MN and Wi (both states with essentially universal coverage to those of Texas or Fla.) UHC does correlate to better outcomes in health, education and economic outcomes.


    http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/sic...sick_show?tx=3
    Thanks for posting the links to the lists of healthiest and unhealthiest states futher in this thread. However, when I went there I saw MN listed among the healthies but not WI. Also it was not #1 and there were 9 other states that did well, so it does not follow that UHC is the reason or the only reason for the score. Also, for the same reason, TX and FL being at the bottom of the list (w/ 8 other states, what made you pick those two?) does not prove that pvt insurance does not work in all cases or even that it is the reason that these states are rated so poorly.
  13. by   fronkey bean
    Quote from Baptized_By_Fire
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4042072.htm

    Data regarding wait times in the U.S.

    "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems."

    [FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]"[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]If you find a suspicious-looking mole and want to see a dermatologist, you can expect an average wait of 38 days in the U.S., and up to 73 days if you live in Boston, according to researchers at the University of California at San Francisco who studied the matter. Got a knee injury? A 2004 survey by medical recruitment firm Merritt, Hawkins & Associates found the average time needed to see an orthopedic surgeon ranges from 8 days in Atlanta to 43 days in Los Angeles. Nationwide, the average is 17 days."

    [FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]"[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]26% of U.S. adults in one survey went to an emergency room in the past two years because they couldn't get in to see their regular doctor, a significantly higher rate than in other countries."

    [FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]"[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]only 47% of U.S. patients could get a same- or next-day appointment for a medical problem, worse than every other country except Canada."

    [FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]"[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]51% of sick Americans surveyed did not visit a doctor, get a needed test, or fill a prescription within the past two years because of cost. No other country came close."
    Thanks for the link, the article was well written. My own husband just recently did not fill a prescription b/c it was too expensive. He discussed it w/ his MD and found another prescription that his MD said was just as good if not better and we could get much cheaper as it was an older med.
    I also liked the last paragraph were it talked about the quick clinics in some stores. Although they certainly will not replace a primary MD, it could be one way to reduce the wait times. Also, I think CRNP's will become increasingly utilized in MD's office for minor ailments to help relieve the backlog.

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