How long before NPs will be able to do surgery solo?

Specialties NP

Published

Fellow NPs, I think this is coming soon. I know many NPs who are first assists right now. They do 95% of the surgery while the MD does the other 5%

However, the NPs I know are well trained to where they could easily do the other 5% of the surgery that the MD does currently

I think its time for our PAC and lobbying organizations to get behind this effort. Doing surgery has been part of nursing practice for a long time now, its time for the world to recognize that we NPs are surgeons too and we can do it just as well as the MDs, if not better.

We need to move on this issue.

I think surgery should be taught as a high school elective....let everybody have access!:lol2:

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Telemetry, OR, ICU.
I think surgery should be taught as a high school elective....let everybody have access!:lol2:

:smackingf

LOL, you need to go stand in the corner for that funny comment.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Hmm, well add an additional year of training plus 2 years of residency on TOP of NP training and I think some NP's could do minor procedures.

3 yrs nursing school + 2 years NP school + 1 year NP surgery school +2 years residency = I might as well ahd gone to medical school. :lol2:

You have got to be kidding (and I think you are, but I just want to emphasize the point here)

How about - 4 years of college + 4 years med school + 5 years MINIMUM of surgery residency - during which you work at least 80 hours a week, quite a bit more than any of the NP training I'd say. Rarely get weekends off, again quite different from NP training or education. There is no way you can learn during NP training what you learn as a surgeon MD or DO.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Day Surgery/Infusion/ED.

Methinks the OP is a troll from SDN. Particularly since they have a thread going on there about this thread here.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Telemetry, OR, ICU.
Methinks the OP is a troll from SDN. Particularly since they have a thread going on there about this thread here.

Troll? ;)

Up Vote Up Vote ×

There was a time when only MD's could take blood pressures. It was not that long ago when only MD's ran perfusion machines. As medical technology advances and nursing education advances, the skill sets for both nurses and doctors changes. The OP makes an interesting point and is probably right that the day will come when nurses solo on some surgical procedures. I've been noticing this upgrade over the years. CNA's and MA's are doing some LVN skills as LVNs are doing some RN skills as RNs are doing MD skills. IMHO

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in ICU, ER, HH, NICU, now FNP.

The original post carries the faint whiff of troll....

Up Vote Up Vote ×

This is an interesting topic to consider. But how do you define surgery, is it an invasive procedure such as a angiogram, placement of inferior vena cava filter, lipoma removal, or are you refering to hysterectomies or mastectomies. Where would you draw the line on what procedures a surgical nurse practitioner could preform, and how would hospitals credential them. Will CNMs ever do a c-section, or can a CRNA place an pain pump?

If i remember correctly ODs can do laser vision correction surgery in one state this is definatly different that completing a MD then residency but this is a limited scope procedure that focuses around refraction.

When you compare other surgical training programs which are around it woudl be significantly longer than the typical APN program. Podiatry surgical residencies are 3 years, oral surgon is a 4 year program (unless the DDS also wants a MD then it is 6 years) both of these are not MD/DO and have surgical residencies.

If there ever were to be a surgical nurse practitioner it would have to be a significant time to train likley extremly similar to that of the MD/DO or other provider. Given that many CRNA programs are 2-3 years (more are closer to the 3 year mark) but an anesthesiology residency is 4 years (last in research sometimes) nurses in advanced tracts do have trainig programs with similar duration to physicians. I am not sure if we ever will have a 4 or 5 year general surgery nurse practitioner program but it is interesting to think about.

In the mean time i will stick to having a perscription pad, minor procedures and assisting in surgery and I will still love my job.

Jeremy

Up Vote Up Vote ×

RNFAs dont need that much more training to do surgeries solo. i would suggest maybe an extra year, followed by a year working an apprenticeship under an MD surgeon. Then RNFAs could be called SPN for surgical nurse practioner and then be ready to do some surgeries solo.

Somebody else brought up a good point. Scope of practice is constantly evolving. Nobody ever thought that nurses would script drugs 40 years ago. Yet now it is commonplace. Some of you guys are very shortsighted in thinking. I also dont appreciate the lack of respect given to surgical NPs. We can do the job just as well as an MD surgeon.

Its time to stop discriminating against NPs. We are a more cost effective surgeon, and we will do just as well as the MDs. AGain, I'm not talking about ALL surgeries, just some of hte more minors to start out like lap chole or hernia repair. Nobody is saying we should start off with lung/heart double transplant operations.

Our PACs and national organizations need to start the lobbying effort. I have seen the skills of these NPs close up and they are every bit as good as the MD surgeon.

NPs not being allowed to run surgeries solo is the same thing years ago when NPs could not script drugs. We DO have the capability and knowhow to pull it off. We dont need to be stomped under the feet of surgeons who think they run the whole show.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
RNFAs dont need that much more training to do surgeries solo. i would suggest maybe an extra year, followed by a year working an apprenticeship under an MD surgeon. Then RNFAs could be called SPN for surgical nurse practioner and then be ready to do some surgeries solo.

Somebody else brought up a good point. Scope of practice is constantly evolving. Nobody ever thought that nurses would script drugs 40 years ago. Yet now it is commonplace. Some of you guys are very shortsighted in thinking. I also dont appreciate the lack of respect given to surgical NPs. We can do the job just as well as an MD surgeon.

Its time to stop discriminating against NPs. We are a more cost effective surgeon, and we will do just as well as the MDs. AGain, I'm not talking about ALL surgeries, just some of hte more minors to start out like lap chole or hernia repair. Nobody is saying we should start off with lung/heart double transplant operations.

Our PACs and national organizations need to start the lobbying effort. I have seen the skills of these NPs close up and they are every bit as good as the MD surgeon.

NPs not being allowed to run surgeries solo is the same thing years ago when NPs could not script drugs. We DO have the capability and knowhow to pull it off. We dont need to be stomped under the feet of surgeons who think they run the whole show.

Platon20, G-d forbid this should ever happen, but if you or your loved ones did require a surgery (be it minor or major), and if you had a choice...which one would you pick SNP or MD/DO with at least 5 years of the residency postgraduate training. I'm not sure that general public would be just as accepting to such revolutionary measures.After all, no matter how you slice it, it is downgrading of the surgical profession. I think general public is sick with the whole HMO racket. Cheao labour does not necessary yields the quality. Anything "minor" could turn into "super-major" and complicated in a split second. You seem to have a lot of desire, and political will to fix something that's not broken. I believe it's grossly irresponsible, and just will antagonize medical community even more.It's a dirrect threat to their turf, which may result in setting back the whole NP thing for many, many, many years back. If you want to compete with physicians, the only right way, IMHO, is to become one, and to take it from there. I'm not ready to do away with any of my doctors. You know, deep down inside I just hope you're pulling everyone's leg here;) Replacing the doctor with the nurse, what's next?Replacing an RN with a truck driver? C'mon, you've got to be kidding. In this case, it's the best set up yet

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Platon20, G-d forbid this should ever happen, but if you or your loved ones did require a surgery (be it minor or major), and if you had a choice...which one would you pick SNP or MD/DO with at least 5 years of the residency postgraduate training. I'm not sure that general public would be just as accepting to such revolutionary measures.After all, no matter how you slice it, it is downgrading of the surgical profession. I think general public is sick with the whole HMO racket. Cheao labour does not necessary yields the quality. Anything "minor" could turn into "super-major" and complicated in a split second. You seem to have a lot of desire, and political will to fix something that's not broken. I believe it's grossly irresponsible, and just will antagonize medical community even more.It's a dirrect threat to their turf, which may result in setting back the whole NP thing for many, many, many years back. If you want to compete with physicians, the only right way, IMHO, is to become one, and to take it from there. I'm not ready to do away with any of my doctors. You know, deep down inside I just hope you're pulling everyone's leg here;) Replacing the doctor with the nurse, what's next?Replacing an RN with a truck driver? C'mon, you've got to be kidding. In this case, it's the best set up yet

Those are the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS that doctors made against NPs scripting meds. Yet we NPs do fine with them, and yes we manage complications with meds too. Meds can be dangerous, sometimes the patient will get Stevens Johnson Syndrome or another major complication from meds yet we NPs know how to deal with it.

AFter all, why would go to an NP for medication when you can go to a doctor with X years of residency training, etc.

What I'm saying is those arguments have been tried and failed for scripting meds. It only makes sense in the natural evolution of the NP profession to become involved in ALL ASPECTS OF HEALTHCARE, not just the stuff the MDs will let us do.

Also, remember that MDs have no control over us. We are regulated by state nursing boards, and MDs have NO CONTROL OVER WHAT STATE NURSING BOARDS DO. If we want to add surgery to our scope, we can do it easily and there's nothing MDs can do about it.

Again, I'm saying we start small and think big. Train RNFAs in a longer more comprehensvie program, and then let them do their thing with basic bread and butter surgeries that we assist on every day. I'm not talking brain surgery here, just regular gen surg procedures that are very common.

As I said before, 40 years ago it was UNTHINKABLE that a nurse would be able to prescribe medicine, yet now it is the NORM. IN the future, surgery wil become part of the norm for NP practice too.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

All I can say is INSANE IDEA.......... I think NPs are great, but if I have to go under the knife, I want it to be in the hands of a doctor.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Add a Comment