Anyone heard of any NP to MD programs?

core0 · Oct 6, 2007

that's in USA. what i said is actually happening in Oz. wow, USA has a med school admission rate of 44% to 50%? amazing. must be real easy to get into med schools in USA. in Oz, it's 20%. and in many places in the world, the program is still 8 years. in uk, it is usually 5 or 6 years.

Completely different system. There are a few people that go to Ireland or Eastern Europe to shave 1-2 years off of medical school. The US system counts only post graduate education.

As far as being competitive the Osteopathic schools had an overall GPA of 3.4 and MCATs of 24 for those accepted. For Allopathic schools it was 3.6 and 30. That puts average GPA in the top 15% of all college grads. Still pretty competitive. I am willing to bet that there is more self selection here and the ones that are not competitive go overseas.

David Carpenter, PA-C

cgfnp · Oct 6, 2007

And you think that is all going to disappear when you move to a rural area? Having done many of my rotations in Appalachia I can tell you it is much worse. It is not only not having your calls not returned but having the nearest specialist 200 miles away. Its having patients hit you up for refills in the grocery store. Its knowing that those drug seekers are your neighbor and you can't fire them because you are the only game in town. Its having the patients know where your house is so they can drop by if they have a problem. Its trying to run a clinic without reliable phone or internet service.
The problems don't disappear when you are in rural America, they just become different.
We are wandering off topic. There is an independent nurse practice thread or someone could start a new thread.
David Carpenter, PA-C

I work in one of the most rural places in America. Yes I know what it's like. I don't rotate there. I work there. Once again, I think it would be better to put up with the rural %$& independently than be in a urban setting without autonomy.

Isn't really off topic either, as autonomy and independence has everything to do with NP to MD programs, as that would be the driving force for most NPs doing this.

cgfnp · Oct 6, 2007

Are you working in primary care?

Yep. Primary care clinic, with inpatient rounds on my admissions and 1:4 ER/LCTU/Acute call. 1:4 would be nice, but I somehow get stuck with about 40% of the call time. And I get paid the least of the 4 for the call time. I get more angry every single minute...

tiredfeetED · Oct 6, 2007

Oceania med is in Samoa and you do not need to take the MCAT if you have had medical experience. Ross University has a decent reputation and there are one or two other Carribbean schools that I can't remember the name of.
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Oceania med school is a scam. Most of the courses are taught online which is not approved by any current state medical board.

Ross, is one of the 3 medical schools in the Carribbean that is recognized by all 50 states but this school is not a bridge. Ross requires MCATS and has no advanced standing for midlevels. At this current time there is not a single school allowing advanced standing.

DO programs tend to be more receptive towards midlevels. MD programs are more focused on grades/MCAT scores and research.

core0 · Oct 6, 2007

Yep. Primary care clinic, with inpatient rounds on my admissions and 1:4 ER/LCTU/Acute call. 1:4 would be nice, but I somehow get stuck with about 40% of the call time. And I get paid the least of the 4 for the call time. I get more angry every single minute...

First point you are demonstrating that the same crappy things happen to people in rural situations as they do in urban. The second point is that you are confusing independence with a crappy work situation. Considering that in almost every state you can either become a partner in a medical practice or open your own practice independently under an LLC then what is the reason you stay and are so unhappy? Either you live in one of the few states where you can't do this and choose not to move or you have made the determination that 98% of NPs have made that risk > reward.

David Carpenter, PA-C

veritas · Oct 7, 2007

If you want to get technical Med schools here in the US are 8 years if you count the undergrad degree, then there is the residency part. I"m sitting here looking at the OZ rules and am getting confused over the awarding of degrees. It looks to me that things are basicly the same, just packaged in a different wrapper.
http://www.medical-colleges.net/medical.htm I know it's not a scholarly paper or site, but here it is.

i meant becoz in US you have some programs which shave off 1 year from the 4 year post-grad program, essentially making it 3 years post grad for a med degree. there is no such thing in uk or oz or most 1st world countries. in oz and uk, even after u do a degree, no matter what it is or how much experience you have, u end up in the bottom with the rest, without exemptions. and in some countries, even if u have a prior degree, u still have to do the 8 years. so US is already providing the shortest recognised program in the world.

core0 · Oct 7, 2007

i meant becoz in US you have some programs which shave off 1 year from the 4 year post-grad program, essentially making it 3 years post grad for a med degree. there is no such thing in uk or oz or most 1st world countries. in oz and uk, even after u do a degree, no matter what it is or how much experience you have, u end up in the bottom with the rest, without exemptions. and in some countries, even if u have a prior degree, u still have to do the 8 years. so US is already providing the shortest recognised program in the world.

I'm not aware of any programs that allow you to do medical school in three years in the US. Most medical schools follow the same pattern, 2 years of didactic and two years of clerkships. The fastest medical degree that I am aware of is in Ireland and Eastern Europe where it is six years.

David Carpenter, PA-C

veritas · Oct 7, 2007

I'm not aware of any programs that allow you to do medical school in three years in the US. Most medical schools follow the same pattern, 2 years of didactic and two years of clerkships. The fastest medical degree that I am aware of is in Ireland and Eastern Europe where it is six years.
David Carpenter, PA-C

i would hardly be making up things that i post. i am aware that what i post is easily cross-checked. i personally triple check things i post before i post them. to name one of the schools offering a 3 year short cut med degree, is the school of medicine at university of missouri. u may skip year 1 if they deem u suitable.

core0 · Oct 7, 2007

i would hardly be making up things that i post. i am aware that what i post is easily cross-checked. i personally triple check things i post before i post them. to name one of the schools offering a 3 year short cut med degree, is the school of medicine at university of missouri. u may skip year 1 if they deem u suitable.

I couldn't find it on their website. Also just because it can happen doesn't mean that it happens. I have heard of medical students being allowed to skip individual classes if they have expertise in the field. For example if you have a PhD in embryology you may get a pass on embryology. The University of Minnesota trialed a program in the early 1970's and eventually abandoned it. The scores were the same, but there was a concern over clinical competence and from what I understand the graduates had a very hard time getting residencies.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED077343&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=ED077343

I would be interested in a link to a 3 year program. I would not be surprised to find one out there, but it is far from the norm and I would guess that it would impact the residency choice (just as going to Oceania would impact your ability to be licensed). There are MD/PhD programs that shave a year off medical school but you make up that year in the PhD part and you end up being in "medical school" for 7-8 years.

edit actually here is a 3 year primary care program. I would note that without the other electives it would pretty much preclude you from doing anything but primary care (and really only FP at that).

http://www.academicmedicine.org/pt/re/acmed/abstract.00001888-200709000-00016.htm;jsessionid=HLmY4fQV0qyCKFZ0yd4jhcySKTKXBYPxDvw7m1ZqV8pkYJ6s28Kg!-656639706!181195629!8091!-1

Like I said there are programs out there but they are rare and carry penalties. I suspect this will not last long.

David Carpenter, PA-C

caldje · Oct 7, 2007

edit actually here is a 3 year primary care program. I would note that without the other electives it would pretty much preclude you from doing anything but primary care (and really only FP at that).
http://www.academicmedicine.org/pt/re/acmed/abstract.00001888-200709000-00016.htm;jsessionid=HLmY4fQV0qyCKFZ0yd4jhcySKTKXBYPxDvw7m1ZqV8pkYJ6s28Kg!-656639706!181195629!8091!-1
Like I said there are programs out there but they are rare and carry penalties. I suspect this will not last long.
David Carpenter, PA-C

I diagree a little bit. I think that the 3 year primary care tract will become more common. But, also realize that it isn't that you apply, are accepted, and enter the 3 year tract. You apply and are accepted to the medical school. Then you apply to the 3 year tract for which only 12 are accepted into it. Those twelve still enter a 4 year program, after the first 15-18 weeks of school (anatomy, biochem, etc.) the 6 with the best grades are allowed to continue in the primary care 3 yr tract. After they are done, they can do a residency in any field (if they can get admitted) but will have to pay back 4th year tuition if they don't stay in primary care (FP, IM, OBGYN, or PEDS) for at least 5 years AFTER residency.

So, this is not a viable option for someone to do a 3 year program. This is only available to those commited to a four year program who are excell early on in the med school program.

In the future, I think you will see more of these programs as an incentive to enter into a low paying primary care field. New FP residency graduates can expect 100-120k a year and salaries really top out at 160k a year. If you go to a DO school like Lake Erie you will likely be 200k in debt just from med school for 4 years. Its just not a good deal for all the hard work put in. The 3 year curriculum fixes that by taking away 25% of medical school debt.

core0 · Oct 7, 2007

I diagree a little bit. I think that the 3 year primary care tract will become more common. But, also realize that it isn't that you apply, are accepted, and enter the 3 year tract. You apply and are accepted to the medical school. Then you apply to the 3 year tract for which only 12 are accepted into it. Those twelve still enter a 4 year program, after the first 15-18 weeks of school (anatomy, biochem, etc.) the 6 with the best grades are allowed to continue in the primary care 3 yr tract. After they are done, they can do a residency in any field (if they can get admitted) but will have to pay back 4th year tuition if they don't stay in primary care (FP, IM, OBGYN, or PEDS) for at least 5 years AFTER residency.
So, this is not a viable option for someone to do a 3 year program. This is only available to those commited to a four year program who are excell early on in the med school program.
In the future, I think you will see more of these programs as an incentive to enter into a low paying primary care field. New FP residency graduates can expect 100-120k a year and salaries really top out at 160k a year. If you go to a DO school like Lake Erie you will likely be 200k in debt just from med school for 4 years. Its just not a good deal for all the hard work put in. The 3 year curriculum fixes that by taking away 25% of medical school debt.

Actually I think that you have the process wrong. You do have to be admitted to LECOM. Then you have to be accepted into the PCSP program. They are taking six this year and it will gradually increase over the next four years to 12. This is a separate pathway and there is no way to move into one of their other pathways once you stop since you will be off cycle. After 20 months you start your clerkships. I didn't find anything about having to pay back and it would be hard to charge someone for education that you never received.

The main points can be found here:

http://my.lecom.edu/bradenton/news/PCSP2.asp

Left unspoken is the fact that if you opt out you could wait four months and join the other class in the regular program after completing the didactic portion. The real decrease in the course time is out of the clerkships. The main time savings in the didactic year is the loss of summer vacation. They have only compressed things a month outside of that.

The main time savings in the clerkship is the deletion of 13 clerkships with addition of five. This amounts to nine months of time. This is also the reason that the DO is unlikely to get into anything but an FP residency. Among the missing clerkships are one IM, one EM and one surgery. Since most residencies want you to show interest and have some experience in the field they are unlikely to want a student that cannot demonstrate an interest. I am referring to IM, Peds and OB/GYN which are the traditional primary care residencies.

The changes are detailed here:

http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event=c.getAttachment&riid=1182

The big problem that I see is that they are taking people that don't know much about medicine much less primary care and committing them to a FP only medical practice. There are some that during medical school will discover they don't want to do FP but are now committed (although this won't be much different than the "I'm a doctor but I don't like medicine what do I do now?" posts that you see all the time on Studentdoctor:uhoh3:).

David Carpenter, PA-C

caldje · Oct 8, 2007

Actually I think that you have the process wrong. You do have to be admitted to LECOM. Then you have to be accepted into the PCSP program. They are taking six this year and it will gradually increase over the next four years to 12. This is a separate pathway and there is no way to move into one of their other pathways once you stop since you will be off cycle. After 20 months you start your clerkships. I didn't find anything about having to pay back and it would be hard to charge someone for education that you never received.
The main points can be found here:
http://my.lecom.edu/bradenton/news/PCSP2.asp
Left unspoken is the fact that if you opt out you could wait four months and join the other class in the regular program after completing the didactic portion. The real decrease in the course time is out of the clerkships. The main time savings in the didactic year is the loss of summer vacation. They have only compressed things a month outside of that.
The main time savings in the clerkship is the deletion of 13 clerkships with addition of five. This amounts to nine months of time. This is also the reason that the DO is unlikely to get into anything but an FP residency. Among the missing clerkships are one IM, one EM and one surgery. Since most residencies want you to show interest and have some experience in the field they are unlikely to want a student that cannot demonstrate an interest. I am referring to IM, Peds and OB/GYN which are the traditional primary care residencies.
The changes are detailed here:
http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event=c.getAttachment&riid=1182
The big problem that I see is that they are taking people that don't know much about medicine much less primary care and committing them to a FP only medical practice. There are some that during medical school will discover they don't want to do FP but are now committed (although this won't be much different than the "I'm a doctor but I don't like medicine what do I do now?" posts that you see all the time on Studentdoctor:uhoh3:).
David Carpenter, PA-C

David,

I think if you were to watch this video. You may understand what I am trying to describe. This is a primary care 'scholars' program. The scholar's part being emphasized because that is why it is possible. Emphasized by the speaker. I think once you watch the video you will realize this is far from a guranteed pathway and one could easily find themselves in a 4 year curriculum without ever having the intention of spending 4 years in the school. Only the best are allowed to finish in three years, for the reasons you described.

http://www.mutualgravity.com/dld/ywmjreks/PCSP%20Low%20bandwith.mp4