Advice needed - Should he be fired?

ernorm · Mar 23, 2005

He is a liability. He needs to have a write up, if he hasn't already , then a dismissal if he is unable to improve. Not only is he a problem for other staff, but what about your patients?

happthearts · Mar 23, 2005

We do have P&P's regarding this situation - basically 3 strikes and you're out - the problem is that the last "manager" NEVER disciplined him for his tardiness or call-in's with the excuse "((((I'm late too so I can't say anything to him, it'd be the pot calling the kettle black.") ))) When I was put in the position of manager I immediately reviewed the minimum expectations (with #1 being "be on time and ready to work") to make sure everyone knew that if the expectations were not met, disciplinary action would be taken. Everyone signed it acknowledging that they understood. Going by our P&P's and my "Minimum Expectation" understanding, he should be let go. But with us being so short staffed already, would letting him go put us in a worse situation?
In response to your other ideas---I had no orientation to this position as I was supposed to be supervisor only - the nurse manager was in charge of budget/p&p/compliance/hiring/firing. Unfortunately she quit after a medical emergency (after only 1.5 months there) and has not been back since. The previous nursing supervisor (the one who was late all the time) was essentially good for nothing - was hardly never there with no call or explanation as to why she wasn't there. The leadership and organization in our nursing department has been extremely lacking for longer than I've worked here. I was promoted to my position because of my enthusiasm to fix things and make it "how it should be". While my lack of experience does not help, at least I know where I can go to find answers. I have done a hell of a lot of good in a very short time, and was recoginized by our CEO for my efforts and quality improvements. We went through a JCAHO audit 3/9-3/11 and the auditor essentially demanded that our CEO take down the ad for a new nursing manager, stating "Another person will muddy the waters - Melissa is doing a great job and she should be recognized for it" - which is why I ended up as manager. I had many protests as well - I still need to learn how to be a nurse! But all in all this is the position we are in, and while I'm in this position, I'm going to do everything I can to make the nursing department as strong, organized, and efficient as it can be.
Which is why I turn to this message board for advise - should he be fired? We need full time staff, but we also need full time staff who are responsible. Should I put up with his BS until we get those responsible people on board, or just get rid of him now?

You gave him the verbal now write him up .Then if you decide after that You can suspend for 3 days or fire him. I would have someone with you when you do write him up if you can.Document and have him sign it. I just went though this with our manager and staff member that kept messing up bringing every ones moral down . We were short staffed as well and she would call in at the last minute, The manager finally agreed with me and after given time to improve she didn't .So after the write up we let her go .Our staff said it was about time.

I think your staff will end up thanking you in the long run.They will be happy not to have to deal with him .Plus if you do it this way and he does not improve there will be No un-employment benefits for him because you fired him justly He is a huge problem because he doesn't document in the charts I would also add that in the write up.

Now set the example your self and never be late again.

igloorn93 · Mar 23, 2005

I have been in your shoes. You need to contact your DON and your HR supervisor and request a meeting and have all of your documentation ready. Present it to them and then follow their recomendations. My guess will be a suspension as from reading your post that sounds like the next step. Then, if his behaviour continues you will have the documentation to terminate him. A side note, please make sure that you can provide documentation that you track all of your staffs time and attendance the same way in case he tries to come back with a lawsuit. I used to keep a notebook and each payroll, filled in everyone's tardy's etc. Good luck to you. Sounds like you really are doing a great job. Keep up the good work. PS: As a manager of a short staffed unit you will get lots of opportunity to work staff and increase your knowledge and skills base! :)

Tnichelle · Mar 23, 2005

I am a new grad and new nurse manager. We have a nurse working with us who has 18 years experience. He works 2nd shift which starts at 2:30pm. Probably 85% of the time he is late (arrives at 3:00 or later, sometimes up to 2 hours late). In the last month he has called in sick less than an hour before his shift starts 3 times. I have talked to him about his tardiness at least 4 times since December.
He is very very smart and has great assessment skills. He is NOT very good with computers, which causes a problem when it comes to documentation since our system is computerized. He does not always chart on patients, even when I know something has happened to them on his shift.
The other nurses avoid working the shift before him because they can pretty much guarantee that they will have to stay late waiting for him to show up, and they don't like to be on-call when he is working, knowing that he has a high tendency to call in sick.
Ordinarily I would have no problem with letting him go, but my facility is down 3 full time nursing positions (and we only have 7 positions available). We unfortunately depend on agency nurses a ton which really impacts continuity of care.
What should I do?

I think he should have been fired yesterday. The first thing we learn in Nursing School is to be on time. Then he has poor documentation that's a number two no no. Girl, get rid of him and fast you can find many nurses that would love to take his place and further more follow their oath of nursing. How can he provide adequate patient care if he isn't at work or late. :angryfire

Celia M, ASN, RN · Mar 29, 2005

Continue with the disciplanary process, written warning, suspension , then fire him. Make sure that you have somone else with you during the process. Have him repeat back to you to make sure he understands your expectations. Make him sign something that states you've given him the policies on tardiness and stick to it. Meanwhile get in contact with an Agency so you can find a replacement. With him gone you'll probably find it easier to find permanent replacement. Good luck!!! :)

barefootlady, ADN, RN · Mar 30, 2005

I agree with the other posters: written warning, suspension, then fire him for even a 5 minute tardy. No Excuses Accepted. Meanwhile, talk with the agency about a contract nurse, someone who will be there everyday, on time, ready to do the job required. In the 3 months most contracts are written for you can probably find a new nurse, train that new nurse, and institue some of the changes you have planned or you know need to begin. I think the staff will be more helpful and appreciative when they see this "user" shown the door.

LydiaNN · Mar 30, 2005

I have always thought it is a really bad idea to allow an employee to exploit the fact that a facility is understaffed by blatantly ignoring policy and procedures. Of course he should be fired. You may not have the luxury of firing him immediately if you've been lax about following your facility's HR guidelines, but starting today, every time he commits a violation, you should document it. As soon as you've got your ducks in a row, out he goes. You're doing no one any favors by letting this guy get by (except for him, of course). The morale of his co-workers sounds like it is shot, and their respect for you is probably not what you'd like it to be either. You should be supporting the nurses who are working hard and following the rules, not undermining their efforts by allowing this sort of behavior in the workplace.

mattsmom81 · Mar 30, 2005

This story reminds me of a very nice and competent nurse who was always 1/2 -1 hr late and always an hour-2 over every shift. It because obvious she thought she was soooo nice and soooo good this should compensate; and she defended herself by saying 'its how she was'.

She got to be a real morale problem, particularly when so many of us were getting there and getting our work done on time, but were getting written up for minor things while this nurse was late...every stinkin' day... disrupting the shift as well as disrupting the night nurses' life who had to stay over for her (my kids were late to school frequently because of this nurse).

Well, we had a high manager turnover, so we would get a new manager who because she was 'nice' would 'allow' her to resign...then the next one would hire her back..and we went through the same thing 3 times over the space of several years time. I guess the point of my story is what this type person does for morale over time.

Good luck to you and like others said, make sure all YOUR ducks are in a row policy wise before you let him go or ask for his resignation.

humglum, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2005

1/2 hour to 1 hour late? A bedside nurse? Knowing that someone had been working hard for 8 or 12 hours and then had to wait until she decided to show up? That is completely unacceptable, unprofessional behavior. I can't believe it lasted so long at your facility.

In this situation, you need to follow your facility's P&P. If the old manager never disciplined him, you have to start from scratch just to protect yourself from litigation.

And I've never heard of JCAHO recommending anyone for management positions. That's a bit strange.

RRT/RN · Apr 1, 2005

I'd have to say this guy needs to go. Three nurses down or not, he's throwing everyone else under a bus every time he calls in or shows up late. I can't stand working with people who disrespect their coworkers (and their patients) in this way. Hire someone who WANTS the job! :angryfire BTW, I'm a new grad and you couldn't pay me a million bucks to be nurse manager. Good luck in this capacity...

witnurse · Apr 2, 2005

Canoehead-
The only, and I mean only, reason I mentioned placing him in final written warning is b/c many employers require this as a step in termination. Otherwise, it would be "Sayonara, Seymore!" from me immediately. Just another way to "CYA" for her so that this knucklehead has no chance of getting his job back when he decides to sue for wrongful termination or age discrimination after the no one will pay his unemployment. Cynical, I know, but people like that have a way of sneaking up on you sometimes.
Elizabeth

It is not a tough decision. you have your CEO's backing and confidence. I was in a similar situation not too long ago. we had a nurse who was very bright.

excellent critical care skills and was flexible. She was late every day!! I spoke with her about this and her response was I told the last DON 9 years ago that my only fault was tardiness. She did not say it would be a problem and I was never disciplined for it. I told her things had changed and I gave her a written warning the next time she was late. She stormed out of my office quitting as she went.

I was nervous about staff's reaction. Here I was the new kid on the block and I was the reason this brilliant nurse was let go. I was so surprised when the overwhelming reaction was positive. People were tired of her being late but she was such a tyrant they didn't dare confront it. I heard so many stories about her inappropriate behavior...and NONE of them were in her record. They said they would rather work short than put up with her holding the DON hostage.

Let his butt go!! :rolleyes:

LydiaNN · Apr 2, 2005

It is not a tough decision. you have your CEO's backing and confidence. I was in a similar situation not too long ago. we had a nurse who was very bright.
excellent critical care skills and was flexible. She was late every day!! I spoke with her about this and her response was I told the last DON 9 years ago that my only fault was tardiness. She did not say it would be a problem and I was never disciplined for it. I told her things had changed and I gave her a written warning the next time she was late. She stormed out of my office quitting as she went.
I was nervous about staff's reaction. Here I was the new kid on the block and I was the reason this brilliant nurse was let go. I was so surprised when the overwhelming reaction was positive. People were tired of her being late but she was such a tyrant they didn't dare confront it. I heard so many stories about her inappropriate behavior...and NONE of them were in her record. They said they would rather work short than put up with her holding the DON hostage.
Let his butt go!!

Yep. The best skills in the world mean bupkus if you're not there to use them when you're needed!