North Shore-LIJ Requires New Nurses to Have BSN

guiltysins · Jul 24, 2010

I feel like at some points it's a double standard. People want the profession to be taken seriously and yet complain when they have to get more education. People associate the difficulty of a job with educational level, it may not be right but it's just the way it is, so I say just suck it up and deal with it. This doesn't apply for people who have experience, I mean for people that are just starting out at school and doing the ADN vs. BSN thing.

If doctor's were only required to have a 4 year degree and med school was jammed in there some way, would you still think they were as knowledgable? Probably not because people think of doctors, lawyers, pharmacists as needing extra education. So when the public hears you can be a nurse with a 2 year degree, it lessens things a bit. You can be an ultrasound tech with a 2 year degree and when people look at it that way comparisons are made. We may not like them, we may think they are stupid because yes you are taking the same exam and becoming the same kind of nurse, it's more about the public's view of nursing. Why does a nurse need all those useless pre-reqs, I don't know. Why does a doctor need a 4 year degree before they go to med school and not just science classes like the other health professions? It's the same boat if you think about it.

There is a lot of BSN bashing on this forum and I'm not talking about people who are complaining about those nurses think they are better, but moreso because people think the degree is useless, some ASSUME they think they are better and because apparently ADN's have better clinical skills and all we seem to know are book skills.

foreverLaur · Jul 24, 2010

Why does a doctor need a 4 year degree before they go to med school and not just science classes like the other health professions? It's the same boat if you think about it.

I agree. I'm a big fan of the 6yr BS/MD programs. My neighbor from back when I lived with my parents completed one and scored in the 99% percentile on USMLE Step 1 and landed his top choice orthopaedic surgeyr residency and is doing amazing. This should become more common, especially if the doctors agree to go into primary care.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 24, 2010

I feel like at some points it's a double standard. People want the profession to be taken seriously and yet complain when they have to get more education. People associate the difficulty of a job with educational level, it may not be right but it's just the way it is, so I say just suck it up and deal with it. This doesn't apply for people who have experience, I mean for people that are just starting out at school and doing the ADN vs. BSN thing.
If doctor's were only required to have a 4 year degree and med school was jammed in there some way, would you still think they were as knowledgable? Probably not because people think of doctors, lawyers, pharmacists as needing extra education. So when the public hears you can be a nurse with a 2 year degree, it lessens things a bit. You can be an ultrasound tech with a 2 year degree and when people look at it that way comparisons are made. We may not like them, we may think they are stupid because yes you are taking the same exam and becoming the same kind of nurse, it's more about the public's view of nursing. Why does a nurse need all those useless pre-reqs, I don't know. Why does a doctor need a 4 year degree before they go to med school and not just science classes like the other health professions? It's the same boat if you think about it.
Thank you for the acknowledgement "this doesn't apply for people who have experience"
There is a lot of BSN bashing on this forum and I'm not talking about people who are complaining about those nurses think they are better, but moreso because people think the degree is useless, some ASSUME they think they are better and because apparently ADN's have better clinical skills and all we seem to know are book skills.

I too believe in this day and age they need to settle on one level entry be it 2 or four. In todays market I beleive it should be 4 years.........but some grandfather clause needs to be negotiated.......like 20+ years gets gradnfathered in......... or a separation between 2 and 4 like one is certified and one registered. Like LPN and LVN's

guiltysins · Jul 24, 2010

I too believe in this day and age they need to settle on one level entry be it 2 or four. In todays market I beleive it should be 4 years.........but some grandfather clause needs to be negotiated.......like 20+ years gets gradnfathered in......... or a separation between 2 and 4 like one is certified and one registered. Like LPN and LVN's

Exactly, changing it to four years for people just entering I think is fair and come up with something for people who have already graduated. Maybe a combination of education and work experience as a nurse. But someone who has 10+ years with experience in the field should not have to be made to go back for a bachelor's regardless of what the rule is, it's a waste of time and money.

I think for the sake of public image nursing needs to be 4 years because the public image isn't about people who are nurses, it's about people who aren't nurses. People who haven't researched it aren't going to assume that a 2 year degree and a 4 year degree person have the same license because lower degree usually means lower certification. People who aren't familiar with nursing programs and stuff is going to assume a 2 year degree nurse is similar to an LPN or a Medical Assistant because some of those programs do take the same amount of years to complete. And that doesn't happen in other fields. Even if you don't want to be a doctor or pharmacist, you know Pharmacists need a PhD and that doctors are in school for over 10 years and nursing should be like that. People are confused by the fact that you can get the same license with different amounts of education and then the whole "why an associates or why a bachelor's" arguement comes up.

Think about how many times you've seen the "BSN vs RN" and "ADN vs RN" topics have been started on this forum, people are all confused and don't even realize that BSN and ADN's are only the name of degrees.

guiltysins · Jul 24, 2010

I agree. I'm a big fan of the 6yr BS/MD programs. My neighbor from back when I lived with my parents completed one and scored in the 99% percentile on USMLE Step 1 and landed his top choice orthopaedic surgeyr residency and is doing amazing. This should become more common, especially if the doctors agree to go into primary care.

It just doesn't make sense lol, same with physical therapy. If it were really that crucial then they wouldn't allow said 4 year degree to be in ANYTHING. I think if anything it should be like you said with the BS/MD or like the Pharm D. programs where you do two years of liberal arts and sciences and the last four are strictly pharmacy or even making it an 8 year program where the first two years are the hard sciences and some liberal arts and let the last five to six be dedicated to med school and residencies.

DoGoodThenGo · Jul 27, 2010

One of the great strengths of the nursing profession is that females make up a bulk of the members. Sadly this is also one of it's great weaknesses.

Am not bashing anyone, but this back and forth about who is a "better" nurse has been going on for almost fifty years, and has no end in sight. In the meanwhile places such as Canada, the UK and elsewhere made the BSN mandatory for "RN" and moved on from there.

What is going to happen is something I have been saying since my arrival upon this site. Since the profession of nursing cannot get it's act together and make a decision, one will be made for them via employers of nurses (mainly hospitals).

Yes, "BSN only" etc has been tried before and often failed at hospitals due to the small numbers (relatively) of BSN nurses compared to diploma and ADN grads, but that is changing.

Not only are there many RN to BSN choices, ABSN programs are popping up like flowers. With so many college grads under or unemployed, or just looking for another career choice, it means they can get the BSN in same amount of time (taking into account other factors), they would going to a ADN program.

Obama and the feds can push "community colleges" and pumping out tons of associate degree grads all they want, if the marketplace has no jobs for such persons, they aren't going to be hired. Indeed there are many who took such offers and went into nursing because it was "recession proof" and find themselves and their ADN cooling their jets as hospitals aren't hiring. When thing pick up it remains to be seen where the chips will lie.

IMHO money should have been spent on allowing "experienced (hate the word "senior") nurses to return to school for their MSN so to ease the bottleneck of nursing instructors. I'm not talking about just money for education, as it would take more than that to entice a nurse making $$$ at the bedside away to make just $$ teaching.

It isn't just our working "experienced" nurses, but those who have been laid off or otherwise, there is a huge body of excellent nursing knowledge being allowed to rot and ruin. For what? To import nurses to these shores from other places?

SunSurfRN · Jul 27, 2010

One of the great strengths of the nursing profession is that females make up a bulk of the members. Sadly this is also one of it's great weaknesses.
Am not bashing anyone, but this back and forth about who is a "better" nurse has been going on for almost fifty years, and has no end in sight. In the meanwhile places such as Canada, the UK and elsewhere made the BSN mandatory for "RN" and moved on from there.
What is going to happen is something I have been saying since my arrival upon this site. Since the profession of nursing cannot get it's act together and make a decision, one will be made for them via employers of nurses (mainly hospitals).
Yes, "BSN only" etc has been tried before and often failed at hospitals due to the small numbers (relatively) of BSN nurses compared to diploma and ADN grads, but that is changing.
Not only are there many RN to BSN choices, ABSN programs are popping up like flowers. With so many college grads under or unemployed, or just looking for another career choice, it means they can get the BSN in same amount of time (taking into account other factors), they would going to a ADN program.
Obama and the feds can push "community colleges" and pumping out tons of associate degree grads all they want, if the marketplace has no jobs for such persons, they aren't going to be hired. Indeed there are many who took such offers and went into nursing because it was "recession proof" and find themselves and their ADN cooling their jets as hospitals aren't hiring. When thing pick up it remains to be seen where the chips will lie.
IMHO money should have been spent on allowing "experienced (hate the word "senior") nurses to return to school for their MSN so to ease the bottleneck of nursing instructors. I'm not talking about just money for education, as it would take more than that to entice a nurse making $$$ at the bedside away to make just $$ teaching.
It isn't just our working "experienced" nurses, but those who have been laid off or otherwise, there is a huge body of excellent nursing knowledge being allowed to rot and ruin. For what? To import nurses to these shores from other places?

Some great points here...the decision has been made by the employers, who are taking advantage of the tight market. However, there is not such a great surplus of schools or nurses. Really, traditional BSN schools are just adding summer to the 4 semester format and graduating ABSN students early...and for every ABSN that sprouts up another ADN program is made a little more irrelevant....so while one school gains another school's students lose. As far as people getting through ABSNs quickly it's not really the case....it took 6 years with my original BA, prereqs, and nursing curriculum. Also if an ADN is forced to go back to school for RN-BSN to get a job they didn't save time either...theres just no getting around it BSN-RN is the new standard for getting hired as a new grad and it takes a solid 4 years minimum. BTW - I am a guy, and I see incredible attitudes on this board. Associate nurses seem to villify BSNs moreso than anything else....just my :twocents: but based on what I have seen in the hospital degree level is virtually irrelevant

hpcat · Jul 27, 2010

I think it's great to encourage RNs to get their BSN. I have an ADN plus a BA in social sciences, I plan on getting a MSN. However, we're in a time period when the employers can call the shots since there's a lot of unemployed nurses. Watch things turn around and they'll gladly take ADNs again...

About 3 years ago I saw that a local hospital insisted all new hires have a BSN or be working on one. A couple of months went by and suddenly they were fine with ADNs. I think they set their requirements too high for the job market at the time. Now of course they want BSNs or students near their BSN grad date.

I'm hearing more about nurses retiring where I work, and I'm hearing of more new grads finding positions. Things will turn around.My advice is get a job where you can, work and get experience, and continue your education as soon as you can manage it.

hpcat · Jul 27, 2010

As you will find out in this profession........all is never as it seems. Tuition reimbursment is NEVER for more than a mere pittance of the total cost......these days the reimbursment is simply a small gesture of goodwill....an illusion of good intentions.......not a means to make it easier on the nurse to pay for (nurses by the way of pecking order are very low on the totem pole) For me at this juncture of my career........I am working to provide an education for my children........................and I remain a really good nurse!

I agree, the cost of education is pricey, good luck with that tuition reimbursement. Maybe it will cover if you go to a state school and stretch out over time, but, uh, everyone else is competing with you for those slots cuz they're trying to save a buck too. Private college - $300+ a credit? Not counting fees and books and etc? You're gonna be paying a lot out of pocket. :eek:

hpcat · Jul 27, 2010

Esme12, I know when I graduate my ADN program, I will be held back because I don't have my BSN although I have a BA in Health Psychology and my local RN-BSN will require ONE online class due to transfer credits (I took a lot of nursing research/informatics type courses in undergrad). Ridiculous!

Look into schools on discovernursing.com, there are some online bridge programs for people with a bachelor's in something else, I can't recall the schools offhand but they have you take a couple of extra classes and you can go onto a master's.

nyaussie · Aug 4, 2010

NSLIJ has a waiting period for tuition reimbursement as do most hospitals, and the the amount they do pay per year does not even cover a semester of tuition, particularly for those onsite classes they refer to. This is not a free ride to a BSN.