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megjrn 1,358 Views

Joined Nov 4, '03. Posts: 31 (42% Liked) Likes: 28

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  • Feb 14 '11

    I have no problem with this law. Do the crime, do the time, and not all time is necessarily in a prison.

    Fifteen years is a fair amount of time to allow pass before allowing eligibility. If this is a problem there are other states that will allow you to ply your trade.

  • Feb 14 '11

    "angel garcia: Whats even funnier is that if u seal your record u can actually lie on the applicaton for licensing by stating that u have never been arrested or plead guilty regardless of the adjudication"

    That is not true at all. Healthcare licensing entities have full access to sealed records, as do firearm dealers and manufacturers, and various other entities. Perhaps you mean expunged records? And how is lying on a licensing application funny?

  • Feb 13 '11

    I am a new nurse, and I was shocked when I found out just how badly nurses are treated, and how as a group nurses do nothing at all to put a stop to it. I mean one lone nurse can do nothing but get fired, but nurses in general could do a lot.

    That being said I have never seen or heard of a profession that works 12 to 14 hour shifts with only 1 supposed 30 minute break off their feet, and usually your frowned upon if you are able to take that.

    I remember seeing a story on the news about a lady who worked for some company (Not a nurse) a few years ago. She wasn't allowed time outside of her lunch time to go to the bathroom, and often pee'd in a cup (I think she drove a truck or something). The world was shocked that in an 8 hour period she did not have more breaks and things were changed. As nurses they don't even give us a cup.

    I hear all of this double talk coming out of corporate butt about patient safety while all the while you are pretty much forced to work sick, given more patients per shift, more duties, more paperwork, told to finish it all before you leave, but not to get overtime or you will be written up, but to slow down, but to finish everything, but by the way here's more, but don't forget to take your lunch, but if you stay over you will be written up, if you don't finish you will be written up, and by the way here's more, and please remember patient safety.

    And all the nurses I work complain (mumble under breath), and do nothing. I am staying my two years for experience, another degree (no choice as I have student loans, bills, and cannot afford to get next degree on my own), and then I am leaving hospital work unless things have drastically changed.

    And its sad because I have wanted to be a nurse since I was 4, and patient care was all I ever wanted to do.

  • Feb 13 '11

    nasty toenails on people who are able to take care of them. You know, the really thick, 2" long ones. Usually on dudes who really wear a size 10 shoe but have to buy size 12 cause they are lazy.

  • Jun 26 '09

    Agreed. Or at least hire the ones that want to come to work.

  • Jun 26 '09

    Or...you could hire the right number of nurses, and provide them with enough support that they don't spend their time doing waitressing, housekeeping, pharmacy, physio, dietary, secretary, stocking, and PR duties.

    Hmmm, that sounds better than mandation, and better than on call!

  • May 28 '09

    Or maybe someone is just asking for help because they don't understand the problem???? There is no one person who knows answers to everything which is why we ask others for help. I think that finding a book on medication calculations would be a good idea. Or even search the web for online calculations.

  • Apr 8 '09

    Hi Lorie P! I have not been on allnurses in a couple days. I just saw your post and I am so sorry at what has happened. Sometimes the best of us can get fired. We are only human and can all have lapses in judgment. From all the posts I have interacted with you in the past, you sound like a great and very competent nurse! So don't be too hard on yourself.

    I actually resigned from a PD case once because I feared I could end up getting fired... long and complex story.

    You mentioned that you are worn out from caring and being responsible for others. Sounds like you have "compassion fatigue", along with other problems in your life. The general public just doesn't have a clue how emotionally DRAINING it can be to be a nurse.

    Take care of yourself! And again I am so sorry....

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from azhiker96
    As a reply to the OP, people do have a defensive tendency to externalize errors. It is part of the idea of cognitive dissonance and how people will create external justifications so they don't have to admit of an internal flaw. I don't know if it's maturity, critical thinking, or some other factor that allows some people to look internally and accept responsibility for their mistakes. Hopefully, a professional nurse is able to critically examine everything surrounding an error including the system, available resources, and themselves.
    I hate to tell you this, but by the time you have made to through the rigorous experience that we call nursing school, those at the lower end of the normal curve are already weeded out. The truth is that most errors are process errors, not deliberate human screw-ups. One of the biggest problems in health care is the lack of acknowledgement of this basic fact. It is far easier to place blame than to change a system that is paralyzed by its own inertia. Yes, the person made the mistake, but as another poster pointed out root cause analysis will often show that the cause was something else. True QI in its purest form can be used to fix many of these issues, but the cost of quality is high, and most health care facilities cannot or will not absorb the costs. Instead of looking at problems, they put their emphasis on how they can save money by minimizing staff, discharging patients sooner, etc. Reducing pressures on nurses is just not considered dollar-worthy.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from TurnLeftSide
    I understand what it's like being nervous going through orientation. But that does not excuse a nurse from making medication errors. Why didn't she make check the patient's wristband to the MAR before giving meds? I find it inexcusable. I've given meds to the wrong patient once and I was scared silly when I realized what I had done. I was busy and didn't check the MAR to the patient's wristband. I owned up to my mistake, called the doc, and filled out an incident report. But giving meds to the wrong patient three times?? Three times?

    Right, and that has to be evaluated on an individual basis. We were not there with this person and his/her experiences. We don't know all sides of it.
    Most nurses actually want to be careful practitioners--at least those I've worked with over the last 20 years. And most have what it takes to be just that.

    Again, we have to move away from evaluations that are based on "he said, she said." We have to look objectively at cause on ALL SIDES. Let's forget getting mired in battles of who are the idiot nurses and who are not; that's simply a waste of time, not effective, and it's not realistic.

    Subjective responses aside, we must look as objectively as possible at all the dynamics.

    Again I say most people aren't village idiots. But being new requires a lot of guidance, support, balanced direction, etc. On every step of the orientation, what was documented and what plan of actions was put in place to help remediate, correct, or further evaluate the problem???? See, we don't know all the details, and we will never know all the details.

    Same things with so many nurses pushed aside for non-objective reasons. Many don't realize that for a good number of nurses, it really isn't about issues of safety, etc. Today, it really is more about the softskills and knowing how to fit in. Right or wrong, that is the reality. Every nurse and every doc w/ enough experience makes mistakes. We could encourage openness to taking ownership of mistakes if the environment wasn't so cut throat. Sort of what is hoping to be done with reporting medical errors in general nowadays.

    Very few nurses are grossly incompetent or are Charles Cullins. We have to look at the system, and stop denying that there is a problem. That's how growth occurs. Just as the newer nurse to the institution (as well as all nurses) should openly admit errors in order to mitigate losses, make corrections, and learn from them, so should hospitals and those involved in orientation and precepting look to correct system and process problems.

    Nursing needs to stop playing blame games with individuals and look to overall causes and then treat the causes.
    That's what truly successful leaders, organizations, and professions do.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from talaxandra
    We use a combination of team and primary nursing - patients are allocated geographically, with two nurses carring for eight patients between them. They both listen to hand over and create a shift plan, but take responsibility for half the patients (depending on acuity) - do obs, give meds, liaise with other members of the team, write notes etc, while acting as a support and resource for the other team member.

    The grads share a preceptor - for the first six weeks they all work the same shifts, with the preceptor a supernumerary member of the team. In addition to the preceptor they have a clinical support nurse (one per ward) and a grad coordinator/educator (one per two-ward floor), and study days.

    Despite this integrated, consistent approach, we still have nurses who just don't get it, who focus on the tasks and don't recognise the underlying stuff exists (let alone know any of it), who don't understand that they need to check the blood work before calling for an IV flask or warfarin order, do obs before giving meds etc, and who won't be told. Nurses who believe that any kind of individualised goal setting, criticism, concern or reprimand is personal rather than professional, an example of being picked on (fortunately the phrase "nurses eat their young" doesn't have a firm foothold in Australia).

    Which brings me to the point of the OP - sometimes it is because there isn't enough suypport, but sometimes nurses who believe they were fired for NO reason are plain incompetent and unteachable.


    Emphasis sometimes. What I have observed is there are a lot of nurses who want to do well, yet the games never end--and those that run them have bought into them--regardless of how the particular culture refers to nurses eating nurses or cut throat. I'll say it again. Nurses don't eat their young; they eat each other. The form cliques and factions. Again very POOR team formation, and it ultimately will be problematic. The idea of forming coalitions totally escapes certain folks in nursing, b/c what they really care about are their own little agendas--NOT THE BIG PICTURE. Hence the many problems in the field.

    I have taken people that could barely multiply, taught them things, they grew in confidence, and then they were able to do greater things. The investment in the nurses, whether new grads or experienced nurses that are new to the unit or the institution MUST BE THEIR. OFTEN IT JUST REALLLY ISN'T. Agendas, games, evaluating nurses by way of the Stepford Wife approach gets in the way.

    Sure there are some people that may be unteachable. But they are rarer than rare. The reality is many aren't trained and supported well enough, there is templating of an approach, little to no understanding in how to educate and direct adult learners, and just a general lack of respect to many that are new--whether experienced nurses or new grads. Invest yourself in those that are to be "precepted." Truly learn what the word precept means, and the learn about effective coaching. As they may need to take their ego out of their new learning situation, you also may need to take yours out. Don't be so quick to get your backs up or take offense over every little thing. Some people just have straightforward personalities. So what? My preceptor got wiggy siimply b/c I stated, "Fine. We'll do it your way." He miscommunicated/interpreted something I said about someone waiting for pending orders--telling the NM I intentionally made that person wait just to show her a thing or two. That was utter nonsense, and bearing false witness. I believe God deals with such things. If the NM mistook what he shared, he should have jumped in and clarified it--and should have shown more commitment to his orientee. But its all about personality and personal agendas, and frankly it's quite sad.

    I have no idea what goes on in Australia, but I have worked long and hard enough as a nurse to know what goes on in places here in the US. Nurses eat other nurses---sure, they may smile when they put the knife in and pull it out, but the results are the same. I am continuing my education, I hope to change this problem with more effective precepting and orienting of nurses after I complete my masters. I might not be able to change it everywhere; but I can try to effect change and bloom where I am planted.

    In the meantime I feel sorry for these institutions that allow things to look Magnet status quo, but at the end of the day, underneath the fascade, the antics are the same. You have no idea how many nurses this institution has hired, "precepted," and let go over the past several years in their critical care units. And you can blame it all on episodes of things from three years ago. The institution isn't really looking at what they are doing, or there is some way they can hire nurses, use them in orientation for 90 days, re-hire new nurses, and then let others go when the 90 days are done. I haven't figured it out yet, but even with orientation expenses, somehow they are making out on this deal. Bottom line, they want their new hires to make a commitment and act in due diligence, but they don't really believe that they should reciprocate. I won't disrespect the place to to others, b/c I believe all sides of a story should be represented before we try to influence folks. But now I understand the negative feedback I got from fellow nurses when they heard I accepted a position at this place. It really is a shame. Letting someone move through the 90 days and then eliminating them b/c some don't like the personality or style of someone is just ridiculous, and it really isn't doing due diligence in the process of orientation, precepting, and making the same kind of commitment that they ask of the new hire. That's also part of the problem in America--the capricious use of At-Will-Employment. See the employers see it totally from a one-sided perspective, and all the benefits of the doctrine tend to work in their favor. That's one of the reasons nurses have pushed more in the last 15-20 years for unionization. Many of us had mixed feelings over it. And in some ways I still have mixed feelings over it. But I have seen too many imbalanced, unfair antics over the last two decades. Nurses need proper representation--primarily b/c the employers often enough don't feel a sense of commitment to due diligence and truly fair play. The only folks that get any extra protection outside a decent union are those that have a strong EEOC case. For everyone else, come on board, but bring your K-Y. Not every place I've worked for was like that thank God. But many are.

    Meanwhile my automechanic makes >$70/hour and doesn't have to have an extended academic education or put up with 1/8 of the nonsense most nurses do.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from hotmama2be
    Maybe she just was not cut out to be a nurse , some people just DON'T get it all people have an issue with this at some point in there life. Unfortunately it was too late for her to realize that about herself. Maybe it took her to be fired for her to get awake up call if she even did but it sounds like she still doesn't understand.

    The actual sad truth is that we will never know about this particular person. What I do know is capriciousness, lack of continuity and objective instruction and evaluation along with consistency is a huge problem and Magnet or not, many hospitals do not see to care about it. I've seen things get distorted. Sure maybe what you are saying about this nurse is true, but I've seen more bad and inconsistent treatment, and a general lack of true support in nursing be a bigger, more ubiquitous problem

    Nursing and administrations just refuse to deal with this. Personality and likeability is what rules. If you got that going for you, people can spin a nurse's mistakes in a more understanding way--amazing how likeability aids the tolerance factor. If on the other than one does not have enough personality and likeability factor, the least little thing can be spun in a hugely bad way. I had a nurse tell me about this with her. I said look, if it truly is as they are making it out, then they would need to notify the state board of nursing. Now when they are making mountains out of molehills in order to eliiminate someone, they aren't going to go through the trouble or the potential law suit of defamation, etc.

    So I am wondering if the supposed errors, which could be a true as presented, I really don't known, were presented to the Board of Nursing for investigation. ????


    Nursing over the last 3 or so decades has become more of a dog-eat-dog, cut throat field. While we have been exposed to more reasons for greater overall support of each other, we really have simply decided to stick with cliques and factions and have no idea what truly open collaboration and building coalitions is all about. And because of this sad reality, nursing continues to have trouble being valued and empowered to be a true profession. People say "nursing profession," but it is really often half-hearted.

    Unification, respect for each other openly, resisting cliques, personal or spot-group agendas, resisting factions and then learning and implementing coalitions--these are the only way nursing will ever truly hold legitimate standing as a profession. It is not the amount of doctorates and graduate degrees nurses get either--though there is nothing wrong with that. What WILL make the difference is in learning how to do the former things I stated above--forget agendas, games, every nurse for him/herself, and cliques, and learn how to form openness coalitions.


    I like many aspects of primary care nursing, but I remember my mom as a nurse back in the 70's. Many places were still using the team nursing approach. There was often more unity then. It was more like an effective platoon. Any cut throat behaviors were eliminated--dealt with immediately. Generally there was more support for new nurses and those from the outside coming in--not means to try to eliminate them--dispose of them--and go try out the next nurse victim (new grad or new to the institution).

    And that's what is essentially unhealthy today so often in nursing. The need to victimize or step on someone out of feeling threatened, or stepping on them to make themselves look better--or trying to form the perfect mold for the perfect "team" member. It's utter rubbish, and it's unhealthy, unprofessional, costly, and destructive.
    But it goes on all the time. It won't stop until nurses start getting that the must protect and support their fellow nurses and the nursing as a whole. It means nurses have to put their own agendas aside for the greater good.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Well, it's not necessarily about them being mean and hateful, though some are.

    It's about them being sneaky, cut-throat, playing games, distorting truth in order to acheive whatever agenda/s they have in mind. It's very sad and makes for an unnecessarily stressful and non-supportive environment.

    It's not that nurses simply eat their young--whether that phrase is warn out or not.

    It's that nurses eat each other, period!!!!

    B/c of these games and mentalities, nursing has a tough time building itself up to be a true professions. There's too much of the ole "Every man/woman for himself/herself" going on in the field.

    The sad thing is that more and more nurses are just giving up hope that there will ever be significant change in this regard.

    I do know one thing, and I sware I've lived to see it over again many times.

    Be very careful b/c what you give out WILL COME BACK TO YOU. It might take some time, but you can take it to the bank. NO ONE is EXEMPT from this--though they may seem like they are Teflon and nothing sticks. Sure as the sun rising, it will return to them.

    Whenever I am screwed over, I don't hope for this for those that are unfair and screw others or me over. But I take a breath and just absolutely KNOW they just marked themselves for the return hit.

    So don't say or do the right thing or "act" like you will do the right thing b/c of what it looks like to certain others.

    Do it because it is right AND built into the universe are all kinds of laws and checks and balances. Sure as there is gravity, whatever you do and how you do it, you WILL reap. And no excuse or rationalization will change it's return to you.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from ruby vee
    why do we have to have a term for it? serious answer. why not just look at it on a case-by-case basis.

    agree. i know nurses who are mean and hateful to everybody regardless of how long you've been working and it has nothing to do with you being "young" or new, it's a personality issue. "nursing eats its young: is tired and i'm sick of it too. this is a difficult profession for everyone.

  • Mar 30 '09

    Quote from samadams8
    I totally see what you are saying here--absolutely. But trust me. You have to know by now that there are a significant number of nurses that are very safe and intelligent and caring practitioners that get weeded out b/c of the ridiculously subjective mentalities of others nurses and nurse managers based PRIMARILY ON PERSONALITY. I been a nurse for more than one decade. I have seen it over and over and over and over ad nauseaum.

    You are talking about someone who needs complete remediation and very close mentoring to get her to be safe--and even then, who knows. This person needed a more controlled and regularly measured precepting/orientation. Sounds like someone let her off of it WAY TOO SOON. And I might guess that regular measures and meetings for progress were not gone over every week. Apparently this person was smart enough to quit before she was fired.

    OTOH, there are very intelligent and competent practitioners as myself and a number of others mind you that have been let go for simply being a tad bit outspoken. And by that, I don't mean not willing to accept constructive direction as to how said particular unit does thus and such--or being disrespectful or insubordinate--even I agree or not, unless it is unsafe,unethical, or immoral, I follow direction, period. I stated to the preceptor, while adjusting to nights again and coming down with the most horrendous flu symptoms over something so ridiculously simple, "Fine, we'll do it you way." I said it again with regard to paperwork, which was secondary to the higher priorities needs of a patient with a thrombus that could not be anticoaguated for a couple of reasons. When he was upset that the paper work, which was required for a send-out and was not critical for that moment or even two hours thereafter (which by the way I had started), I responded, "Fine, we'll do it your way." There are a few other instances very, very similar and relatively benign in interactions, and for that, admiting that clinically I was on the ball, they let me go. Said, lol, I wouldn't fit with the team. Hmmm, well, I have busted my butt to help any team I've been on. Something just wasn't right about the whole thing, and I kept ignoring the little voice in my head and the feeling in my gut. I believe in a team that truly commits to being collegial with each other--not covert games that are rationalized as "good team formation." That's not the way to get a team of excellence anyway. I am beginning to think that they found someone that they could bring in for $15,000 less per year--and in this economic nightmare that hospitals are even having to contend with, that's what they did. I suspect something like that may indeed be part of it.

    At this point, I will learn what Ican about myself and how to be Oh so very careful with every miniscule thing I say or show on my face. And I will learn to be more observant about the dynamics and listen to that voice in my head and the feeling in my gut--and if it's telling me to move on, I am going to move on.

    This is the problem when you get let go. People assume it is for the kinds of incompetencies that you have described mama. The next potential employer or others in the field do not necessarily know that you are let go for reasons that have to do with personalities and games that have nothing to do with you being a very effective, competent clinician or have nothing to do with you being a collegial, cooperative, loyal employee.

    They have to start developing objective systems of evaluation with regular and full documentation. Why should a good nurse's reputation be put on the line for nonsense? And it happens a lot more than you may think.
    I do totally hear where you're coming from with your points. We've been getting in trouble at work recently if we're not "positive enough" about all the cut-backs and down staffing we're suffering b/c "it doesn't show you're living our mission". Living the mission is not going to get my bills or my school paid for, now that you've cut our OT, bonus pay (extra $$ for signing up for extra shifts ahead of time), and tuition reimbursement. I'm one of those people who has a hard time keeping their mouth shut, and am struggling to maintain a lower profile in front of management at least.

    My biggest problem is that if I'm asked my opinion, I'm gonna give an honest answer, not the politically correct one. My manager asked me in a staff meeting if there was anything she could do for me, and I told her "No, you don't have any power to make things better...you can't control the monetary situation we're in here, and the cuts they're making, so unless you want to hear a bunch of disgruntled employees sounding off, you should probably avoid that question." Obviously not the proper thing to say. So far they haven't gotten rid of any of their seasoned staff for such reasons, but I can easily envision a day where they do, just to bring in lower paid newbies.


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