caregivers doing IV insertions

  1. right or wrong?

    I had an argument with a friend about this. At a government hospital the chief nurse had called upon the caregiving students and have them try to do IV insertions on a patient for the sake of 'experience'. I questioned why they are allowed to do this when it is not part of their job, and I said they should not not do IV insertions because they are incompetent and they do not cover this in their training. I also asked what's the point of the certification if just about anyone can do IV therapy?

    Members of my family, caregivers and not, disagree with me, saying that I am trying to belittle caregivers, and that I am denying them the freedom to learn.

    And now my friend is afraid to go back to the hospital because the chief nurse and other nurses might chew her out because I made such a big deal out of it.

    I know that in the Philippines, ethical and legal aspects are not so observed in the clinical areas, but when the patient is poor, cannot afford private health care, and seeking our help, should we still deny him/her a dignified health service, even though it is not the best possible? I believe IVT is not something caregivers should meddle on, with or without nurse supervision.

    I really pity the patients who are taken advantage the most.
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  2. 12 Comments

  3. by   lenjoy03
    Quote from sundaebrain
    right or wrong?

    I had an argument with a friend about this. At a government hospital the chief nurse had called upon the caregiving students and have them try to do IV insertions on a patient for the sake of 'experience'. I questioned why they are allowed to do this when it is not part of their job, and I said they should not not do IV insertions because they are incompetent and they do not cover this in their training. I also asked what's the point of the certification if just about anyone can do IV therapy?

    Members of my family, caregivers and not, disagree with me, saying that I am trying to belittle caregivers, and that I am denying them the freedom to learn.

    And now my friend is afraid to go back to the hospital because the chief nurse and other nurses might chew her out because I made such a big deal out of it.

    I know that in the Philippines, ethical and legal aspects are not so observed in the clinical areas, but when the patient is poor, cannot afford private health care, and seeking our help, should we still deny him/her a dignified health service, even though it is not the best possible? I believe IVT is not something caregivers should meddle on, with or without nurse supervision.

    I really pity the patients who are taken advantage the most.

    That's really scary! Your not denying them of learning. Its just that, they should do what they should do! Some may be nice to know but they should know the scope of their work. WEll I bet that chief nurse is just too lazy to do the IV insertion so she just let others do it for her even if they're not competent to do it....

    Sad to say, even nursing students who are having their duties in a public hospital do procedures that are beyond what they are expected to do due to lack of health care personnel. But I'm not saying all public hospitals/institution allow this.
  4. by   lamplighter
    oh noh....thts a big NO no....i myself wasn't able to do IV insertions during my college years...and NURSES must have IV therapy trainings before they could perform insertions...
  5. by   dave787
    under the new law RN here would be allowed to insert IV without IV training as long as during college she/he has been thought how to inset. but for caregiver thats a big no no thats not in thier scope of practice
  6. by   lenjoy03
    Quote from dave23
    under the new law RN here would be allowed to insert IV without IV training as long as during college she/he has been thought how to inset. but for caregiver thats a big no no thats not in thier scope of practice
    Really? I haven't heard of that law yet! Because even if we're already RN, our preceptors and traners always reminds us not to do IV insertion without undergoing proper training what more when your just a student? I'd rather not do it! I still prefer to observe. May I know what source you got that so that I can read. Thank you... : )
  7. by   AstonishiaInlimbo
    I mean, I could understand if the ones taught were nursing students, 'cuz IVT is part of our scope, but they were caregiving students...they're not aware of the implications and complications of the procedure...

    have you guys seen the IV insertion video done by nursing students on youtube? I don't know which school that is but the uniform seems familiar to me...

    Do / did any of your nursing schools allow(ed) that? practice IV insertion on each other as students?
  8. by   lawrence01
    Quote from sundaebrain
    I mean, I could understand if the ones taught were nursing students, 'cuz IVT is part of our scope, but they were caregiving students...they're not aware of the implications and complications of the procedure...

    have you guys seen the IV insertion video done by nursing students on youtube? I don't know which school that is but the uniform seems familiar to me...

    Do / did any of your nursing schools allow(ed) that? practice IV insertion on each other as students?
    Many do. Same is done with med students about to become Medical Clerks. It has it's purpose. And not every school has a dummy just for simulation. Intra-dermal injection is also done that way because not all have an intra-dermal skin simulator just for that and many local nursing professors and medical professors prefer that you do that on each other as well, to know how really painful it is to receive an intra-dermal injection.
  9. by   ninfanp
    There's nothing wrong i guess to let them expose or train for I.V insertion, and its true as you'd stated government hospital in Philippines legal aspect is not observed in clinical areas but there are also hospitals careful in dealing I.V insertion ,nurse should be the one will carry out this order. Whats the Point then? if RN got her Certification then not good enough to find a good site?In emergency cases, you can"t say ,call this RN with certification to insert I.V line for this patient.,and to tell you frnkly,we have Nursing aid who's very good in I.V insertion if the staff nurses failed to insert,they will call this Nursing Aid.For me, no matter she's caregiver/Nursing Aid as long as they're trained & have a good experience ,.That ,they can save patient life condition.You can't say Nurses or RN with certification are good in I.V insertion ,.though its part of our scope but some nurses r not good enough..
  10. by   akoitoh
    Quote from lawrence01
    Many do. Same is done with med students about to become Medical Clerks. It has it's purpose. And not every school has a dummy just for simulation. Intra-dermal injection is also done that way because not all have an intra-dermal skin simulator just for that and many local nursing professors and medical professors prefer that you do that on each other as well, to know how really painful it is to receive an intra-dermal injection.
    yah right,in my school, we have done the intra-dermal, subcu., and IM to each other/to my partner,it was a return demo..and it hurts so much huhu..
  11. by   AstonishiaInlimbo
    but if we let just about anyone to insert IV therapy, it gets confusing for students ...how are they supposed to know that which procedure are they suppossed to/ not to perform if what they see in their training hospital is wrong? I mean I have seen nursing aides who have been in the hospital job as long as the nurses, and they know nursing procedures, but they don't do the IV insertions when 'nurses aren't good enough'...the nurses call interns or doctors for it instead...

    ...and i don't think there are actually nurses who are not good enough to insert an IV line...instead, I believe insertions can be really hard in certain patient conditions...
  12. by   lawrence01
    Quote from akoitoh
    yah right,in my school, we have done the intra-dermal, subcu., and IM to each other/to my partner,it was a return demo..and it hurts so much huhu..
    Yep, this is the common practice for most local schools and I really don't know if there is a local school that does not do this eventually; even in the few schools who have these simulators. They eventually let them practice on each other and do a return demo as part of the curriculum.
  13. by   AstonishiaInlimbo
    Quote from lawrence01
    Many do. Same is done with med students about to become Medical Clerks. It has it's purpose. And not every school has a dummy just for simulation. Intra-dermal injection is also done that way because not all have an intra-dermal skin simulator just for that and many local nursing professors and medical professors prefer that you do that on each other as well, to know how really painful it is to receive an intra-dermal injection.
    I think the main purpose of having to do the IM/ID injections to each other is not so that you can feel the pain, but rather so that you'd get it the first time, 'cuz if you don't your parter would punch you for making mistakes...

    funny thing, one of my classmates did an intradermal on her parter, and she so got nervous, so instead of just a little wheal, she injected .5 of the sterile water on her partner...ouch!
  14. by   lawrence01
    Quote from sundaebrain
    I think the main purpose of having to do the IM/ID injections to each other is not so that you can feel the pain, but rather so that you'd get it the first time, 'cuz if you don't your parter would punch you for making mistakes...

    funny thing, one of my classmates did an intradermal on her parter, and she so got nervous, so instead of just a little wheal, she injected .5 of the sterile water on her partner...ouch!
    No, sorry.. an intradermal and an IM injection will always be painful no matter what (and may even be more painful for certain medications with certain viscosities) and this can be done on a dummy simulator if the only purpose is to be able to do it the right way on a live patient the first time around and locating the proper sites.

    It is only with the IV injection that there should be minimal pain. Only the initial puncture on the skin should be felt and therefore any pain felt afterwards would mean that you are not in the vein anymore.

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