Nursing sientists.... - page 2

Am I the only nursing student going nuts over all the nursing sientists, like Florence Nighitngale, Virginia Henderson, Kari Martinsen, Katie Eriksson etc etc. :uhoh3: I once counted it, and I think... Read More

  1. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Tweety
    Was wondering when we were going to hear from you.............
    Oh, when I first wrote it, I wrote, "Now, Tweety, you know what I'm going to say, but . . ." Then I decided to edit that out.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  2. by   Daytonite
    How else should thinking be taught? Studying and analyzing the thinking of others is one way. Another is to be given an assignment to formulate a theory and prove it yourself. Its not that easy. If you think that nursing theorists who, by the way, are using scientific methods to prove their theories (try to read and understand their original thesis), you need to take a couple of classes in philosophy! Some of those dudes are trying to prove real subjective ideas that are difficult to prove at all by any scientific testing methods. Talk about the metaphysical (spiritual) "I think, therefore I am" as a proof that we exist is hardly scientific. At least the nursing theorists are attempting to design tools to objectively test their ideas, testing that any of us should be able to repeat and come to the same conclusion. Sitting in an oven in the dark for I forget how long to come up with "I think, therefore I am" is really hoaky!

    By the way, the libraries of larger universities often have a section in them (well away from the more popular selections of books) where they have a collection of the dessertations written by not only their own PhD candidates, but copies of ones by some of the more notable PhDs in the country. Some of the work of the nursing theorists may be found there. I found Bill Cosby's thesis he wrote for his PhD in education in my school's collection. While his cartoon program "Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids" was entertaining to watch, it formed the basis for his theory in education that he proposed and tested to get his PhD. We should be thankful that our profs are not making us read the original works of some of the nursing theorists--we would barely get through the first 20 pages or so. At least when we take a class in it, someone has nicely synopsed their work for us. Haven't you guys had to find and read a couple of nursing research articles just to get a flavor of how these theories are developed?
  3. by   Great Dane
    Alakaea - thank you for that very insighftull comment
    -----------

    I'm not saying that we dont have to know how to be critical about what we read, but that is not what nursing theory is about. It is about the way some nurse thought of the patient and the spirit surrounding the patient og the nursing sittuation. Sience theory was a seperate class with no nursing theory at all - I agree that being critical to sientific results, statistics etc is very importent, but nursing theories has nothing to do with that at all.
    When I started nursingschool we started out with nursing theory, and have had that ever since - that was way before we had any anathomy, diseases or pharmacology.
    Like I said with the cake and frosting, you start out with making an cake and then you put frosting on it.

    You can say what you want, but I still think the time would be better spend by cutting down on nursing theory and doing something else more sientific

    There is nothing sientific about nursing theory.
    But there is no sientific evidence that holding a patients hand while he is in pain, calms him down, but we do it anyway. A lot of the things nurses do isn't based sience, BUT if we don't know the sientific and pracital skills then the rest doesn't matter.
    We cant help the patient if we dont have the pracital skills to do so.

    Ask any student or nurse if they think a lot of it is a waste of valuable time they would rather spend learning something else, and it is hell to go through - I have asked and more than 90% say it is. That should indicate that maybe the schools are overdoing it.
    I know people who have dropped out because they felt they were wasting their time and went nuts over it

    Not knowing or using the nursing theorys doesn't make you a bad nurse.

    As nurses increase their responsibility it becomes more and more sientificly based, and if we want to keep up, then we have to accept that that oldschool doctrine where nursingtheories were the most important thing for a nurse to know, is dead. Because that way of thinking is from a time where nursing primarily was bathing the patient, making the beds and to assist the doctor.

    I think I pointed out earlier, it might vary from country to country, maybe even between your states.
    I'm from Denmark, we might be a bit behind on that. The first bachelors got their degree in 2004. And because they had to live up to some ECTS point system (=read a lot for the classes)
    The result is that they cut down on the practical skills and they filled up with nursing theories - the result is that new nurses dont know anything at all that can be used in the clinic. I have talked with students from lots of other countries and it is the same. But I think we in Europe and especially in the nordic countries have more nursing theory than you do.
    I have heard lots of stories about students dropping out and new nurses who stop practicing nursing because they don't feel they live up to the standards and therefor they get one bad experience after the other.
    It IS getting better, due to a massive pressure from the students and all the danish hospitals have developed a program called "New in nursing" where they learn all the stuff they should have learned in school.
    So don't be afraid to go to the hospital if you ever visit Denmark


    I'm looking foreward to being done, because then I don't have to waste my time on stuff I cant use for any other purpuse than passing the examen.
  4. by   Daytonite
    not knowing or using the nursing theory doesn't make you a bad nurse, but it does make the difference between nurse as a job and nurse as a profession. and the point is that here in the states, the actual hands on nursing is something that is usually taught in the lower division classes of nursing, or when you are starting out in the college experience. the nursing theory is studied later. here in the states bsn programs turn some focus to nursing theory. master degree and phd programs really get into that stuff. the idea of formulating a theory and then using scientific method to test it is a routine that is very well ingrained in the u.s. college and university system. i thought that it was also true of many european countries. i was thinking of germany, in particular. it sounds like the bsn programs in denmark are probably being modeled after what goes on in the universities of other countries. perhaps the way it has been set up needs to be looked at again.

    i wouldn't be afraid to get sick in denmark. one of my nursing school friends was married to a danish man and she worked in a danish hospital for a number of years while he went to school there. this was 30 years ago. she told me that the hospital where she worked was very similar to our hospitals here, except everyone spoke danish! her danish, on the other hand, was really bad. for all i know she is living there still with her husband who is a veterinarian. i haven't been able to track her down recently.

    i think you are wise to focus on the hands on nursing care as much as you can because when you are faced with the situation of caring for a patient, i agree, that is the stuff you really need to know. do you need information on nursing procedures or nursing care to help you out?
  5. by   purplemania
    it took me a long time to answer that question myself, why do we study them? I finally learned that when someone takes a concept such as "caring", "becoming", "self-care", etc. and studies it thoroughly we all benefit because we now can put behaviors with those concepts that enhance the positive aspects. For instance, our facility has adopted the caring model. Well, every healthcare worker in the world cares about their patients. But we have listed behaviors that demonstrate caring. We teach these behaviors to our entire staff (not just nursing). The concept of caring is then observable (and hopefully, replicated).
  6. by   1Tulip
    First, I propose that we let GreatDane spell sientist any way he/she wants... at least until we can all post our replies in proper Danish!!!

    There are a couple of issues being discussed here. One is the issue of clinical v. classroom instruction. I know as far back as the late 60's in the US, the rap on BSN programs was that the hospitals ended up doing most of the practical education when graduates got their first jobs. So... ever since nsg. ed. left the hospital-based diploma model, that has been a consistant problem and complaint. Probably always will be.

    The other issue here is the relevance of (however you want to term them) nursing theorists or nurse-scientists. A lot of us responding on this thread know each other pretty well from similar discussions we've conducted elsewhere. If Nsg. Theory has value, surely that value diminishes if it crowds pathophysiology and other pt. care related science out of the curriculum. Great Dane says this is a problem in Denmark. I certainly hope they get the theory vs. practice issues in balance.

    For what it's worth, my strong feelings in a nutshell: Much of what we call Nursing Theory is anti-intellectual and contra-scientific, because it is non-empirical. Theories like Watson's and Rogers' are deliberately metaphysical and from them are derived hypotheses that cannot be measured or adequately tested. (Which is how Watson rode the "therapeutic touch" pony for so long.) These metaphysical (I call them "gnostic")theories are particularly pernicious because they are frankly religious and religions love to persecute heretics. Nursing programs that are heavily invested in particular theorists tend to limit faculty (and student) academic freedom and, in so doing, damage the profession they claim to be advancing.
  7. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Daytonite
    Not knowing or using the nursing theory doesn't make you a bad nurse, but it does make the difference between nurse as a job and nurse as a profession.
    Prove it. That's brainwashing without any basis in fact. That's only valid if I accept the Ivory Tower's definition - a definition that singularly supports their viewpoint. Since I dismiss their viewpoint, I also dismiss their definition of my profession.

    In fact, I argue just the opposite. Opting out of a scientific basis in a science driven field diminishes nursing from being perceived as a profession. This drivel holds us back, not moves us forward. When our allied peers can't understand a word we say because it's disguised in doubletalk code, they just dismiss us. And there goes your professionalism. Chunking this stuff and embracing real scientific interfaces with our allied peers is the key to professionalism.

    I reject the Ivory Tower precisely because it is their overdependence on hoaky ideas that hold back my professionalism.

    In fact, I'm a better nurse AND more professional because I chunked useless theory to the curb and embraced the science of my profession combined with my own spiritual makeup.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Dec 26, '05
  8. by   Daytonite
    job - a piece of work done by agreement for pay; a chore; a dury

    profession - a vocation or occupation requiring advanced training in some liberal art or science and usually involving mental rather than manual work

    I would say that studying nursing theory would qualify as being part of the advanced training in liberal arts or science that moves nursing into the category of being a profession.
  9. by   nursemaa
    Nursing has always been based on caring for others, and I think the nursing theorists were and are just trying to describe that caring and how it affects both physical and mental healing. I don't really think they're trying to make a religion out of it, although many of them do focus on the less physical aspects of caring. We are so task-oriented in nursing that sometimes we forget that there is something that sets us apart from other healthcare providers- that we care about the patient in a hoslistic manner, including the emotional and spiritual aspects of the patient. If we become too scientific, we lose the part of nursing that provides for the non-physical needs of patients....we'll become like doctors.

    Besides, it is good "brain exercise" to read and think about the writings of the theorists. Even the ones who are way out there make for interesting reading, and provoke us to think beyond the physical realm. How can that be bad? You don't have to agree with someone to learn from them.
  10. by   1Tulip
    Quote from nursemaa
    Nursing has always been based on caring for others, and I think the nursing theorists were and are just trying to describe that caring and how it affects both physical and mental healing. I don't really think they're trying to make a religion out of it, although many of them do focus on the less physical aspects of caring. We are so task-oriented in nursing that sometimes we forget that there is something that sets us apart from other healthcare providers- that we care about the patient in a hoslistic manner, including the emotional and spiritual aspects of the patient. If we become too scientific, we lose the part of nursing that provides for the non-physical needs of patients....we'll become like doctors.

    Besides, it is good "brain exercise" to read and think about the writings of the theorists. Even the ones who are way out there make for interesting reading, and provoke us to think beyond the physical realm. How can that be bad? You don't have to agree with someone to learn from them.
    Dear Nursemaa:

    Look at the false dichotomy you have set up here. You contrast physical/physicians/scientific with holism/spiritual/emotional/nursing. "If we become too scientific...we'll become like doctors."

    Let's be clear about our language here. We will just run in circles if we don't. I am using the word science to mean an empirical, data driven system of observation, hypothesis formulation, measurement of variables, and conclusions.

    The problem with the gnostic nursing theories is that the "variables" in which they deal are not measurable. (Like... human spirit, aura, holisitic connections with nature and between nurse and patient, and so on.) It is in this sense that these theorists FLEE FROM REASON and take our profession with them.

    You say they are not trying to establish a religion. Well, maybe not in the magisterial sense of that word. But, if you have ever studied comparative religions, you would know beyond doubt, that their dogmas are, in fact, religious. Pick up a book on the history of Western thought and look up the Greek Mystery religions. You'll find a picture of Jean Watson. OK... I was kidding about the picture thing. But Watson and Rogers are in deed and in fact, promoting a religious doctrine.
  11. by   papawjohn
    Hey Y'all

    I dunno much about the Nursing Theorists. But I've met a few "professional" nurses and mostly didn't think they added much. Put me down as someone who happily does his "JOB".

    Capital P "Professionals" make me think of the old joke about the guy who everyone knew drank way too much. Someone asked him if he was an alcoholic. "Heck no!!" he said, "Too many meetings to go to! I'm just happy being a drunk." Those "Professional" with their meetings and plans just give me a severe flare-up of my hemorrhoids.

    Grumble grumble
    Papaw John
  12. by   nursemaa
    Quote from 1Tulip
    Dear Nursemaa:
    Let's be clear about our language here. We will just run in circles if we don't. I am using the word science to mean an empirical, data driven system of observation, hypothesis formulation, measurement of variables, and conclusions.

    The problem with the gnostic nursing theories is that the "variables" in which they deal are not measurable. (Like... human spirit, aura, holisitic connections with nature and between nurse and patient, and so on.) It is in this sense that these theorists FLEE FROM REASON and take our profession with them.
    I just re-read what I wrote, and it seems I was implying that we shouldn't base our actions on science. Sorry for the confusion, that's not really what I meant. I was merely trying to say that in my opinion, it is not bad to consider non-measurable things like spirit, emotions, and the like in addition to science and facts...we are after all humans, and made up of more than molecules (again, it's my opinion). And for the record, I'm not really into auras, reiki etc....just that I believe the human spirit needs care also, and nurses are in a good position to provide that care.

    And the comment about physicians was a joke, hence the laughing smilie after it. Take it easy.
  13. by   1Tulip
    And the comment about physicians was a joke, hence the laughing smilie after it. Take it easy.[/QUOTE]

    I got you now. OK. I guess I flinched, because that anti-MD thing has, in the whole lamentable history of nursing theory, actually been articulated by (Papaw John's) "professional" types. Theory was all the rage in the early to mid 70's, when the feminist movement was gaining strength. The ol' gals that ran graduate departments in schools of nursing deliberately tried to define nursing away from all of that physical/patho/pharm dependent-nursing functions. Thus setting up that false dichotomy that still has some currency in some academic circles.

    Sorry for painting you with their brush.

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