Now I know why nobody ever gets a 4.0 at my school ...

SummitRN, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

PS I agree that this was 'crappy,' but I cannot see how this is actionable. Why is the first instinct for some to contact an attorney?[/quote']
Why is the first instinct of some in nursing to simply accept being screwed over and then ask for more? It's a MAJOR problem in our profession and it starts in nursing school. If protest to the school is ignored, should one curl up and accept injustice?
I do understand not wanting to waste effort. Itsnowornever got her job and into grad school, but others might not have.
If someone's GPA change caused them to lose scholarships, grants, no longer qualify for grad school, or be less competitive for grad school and grad school scholarships... or certain employers that offer increased pay if GPA is above a cutoff (VA does this)????
I am no lawyer, but that ex post facto GPA change could certainly mean financial losses and lost opportunity for some students, possibly easily demonstrated... I bet a lawyer would take that case. That the school stopped short of using the policy change to fail out students who were borderline passing shows that they had some fear of legal consequences.

psu_213, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

Why is the first instinct of some in nursing to simply accept being screwed over and then ask for more? It's a MAJOR problem in our profession and it starts in nursing school. If protest to the school is ignored, should one curl up and accept injustice?
I do understand not wanting to waste effort. Itsnowornever got her job and into grad school, but others might not have.
If someone's GPA change caused them to lose scholarships, grants, no longer qualify for grad school, or be less competitive for grad school and grad school scholarships... or certain employers that offer increased pay if GPA is above a cutoff (VA does this)????
I am no lawyer, but that ex post facto GPA change could certainly mean financial losses and lost opportunity for some students, possibly easily demonstrated... I bet a lawyer would take that case. That the school stopped short of using the policy change to fail out students who were borderline passing shows that they had some fear of legal consequences.

And I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure the school can set up whatever grading scale they want. When I was in nursing school, there were two "sections" of microbiology (i.e., the "same" course taught be different instructors, each with their own exams and their own grading scales). My instructor led a very traditional course with lectures and 3 exams plus a final. The other instructor gave a ton of bonus points and decided there would be no exams--students would be graded on group presentations that they had to give. Basically everyone in the latter class got an A. My class had a more traditional grade distribution. By your logic, someone who failed in "my" class should sue the school since they clearly got hosed.

I know of another course where too many people were failing, so they changed the grading scale to make it more "friendly." This school has a reputation for producing quality graduates. Now word gets out that they altered their grading scale so more people pass and more get As--and employers and grad schools lose faith. The student who earned an A all along now gets "screwed" (to use your word) since now 30 more people have unearned (based on the original scale) As. If that influences his/her chances of getting into grad school, should they not sue?

BTW--this is not about nurses "simply accepting" anything...and the students did not get screwed. I agree, its crappy and would be upset if my grade got lowered. However, the school is well within their rights to establish a grading scale and modify it as they see fit.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

Grading according to a syllabus, which vary by class and instructor, with the ability to drop and refund, switch sections, or withdraw is a false comparison to the situation we discussed. A school and professor offer a course and grade system up front, and the student takes it or leaves it. Arbitrarily changing grades of completed classes denies opportunity to exit; it is like delivering a new syllabus when the final exam is handed in; it is changing a contract where both parties already completed their obligations! So it follows: if changing grades ex post facto is alright with the associated consequences of reduced competiveness of the student as an applicant to schools, jobs, and scholarships, then so is the natural progression of retroactively failing students and revoking degrees after they are granted. That the school did not follow such a progression is arbitrary enforcement resulting from a recognition by the school that they increase their risk of lawsuits.

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

I certainly agree it should be hard; however, I think this grading scale is a bit ridiculous.
Do you want you mother's nurse to make an error in basic nursing practice? Of course not. At that same time, you are not going to demand every GN to get a 100% on the NCLEX to pass.

Actually, since you mention it, she's had some pretty good and some pretty lousy nursing care lately ... but to my knowledge, nobody has given her a 1000x overdose on IV heparin. Though somebody did think it was a great idea to give her prn tramadol (a synthetic opioid) on a TID schedule and didn't seem to notice she was sleeping 20 hours per day and woozy the other four. :)

I associate "basic nursing care" with CNA care, because it's, well, basic. I would expect that an RN would look at a nearly somnolent, opioid-naive, 97-lb 86-year-old and think, Hmmmm, maybe that's a lot of stuff. Slightly higher level of practice. Like what you should achieve in a pharmacology course. If you want to kill people you can do it a lot faster and more dramatically, generally speaking, with a pharmacology error than pretty much anything else short of turning off their ventilators or throwing them down the stairs. :)

Pharmacology-- yep, 90-100% is my minimum. YMMV.

psu_213, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

Pharmacology-- yep, 90-100% is my minimum. YMMV.

I totally agree with a tough grading standard, and we should demand excellence....I'm just saying that it is a bit silly to say that the only way that you can get an A is not to miss a single question!

psu_213, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

it is changing a contract where both parties already completed their obligations!

It is interesting that you use the word "contract." When I was in nursing school, at the end of every syllabus was the sentence "This syllabus is not a contract between the school and the student. It is merely meant as a guide for the student." I always found that statement curious and, well, not being a lawyer, I'm not sure what the implications of such a statement would be in a legal proceeding, if indeed there were a major change in a policy from what was presented in the syllabus (say a change in grading scale, change in attendance policy, etc.). If it is not recognized as a contract by the course, I would think it means a lack of recourse (in a legal sense anyway) for an affected student.

Nurse2BeInGA · May 10, 2013

It is interesting that you use the word "contract." When I was in nursing school, at the end of every syllabus was the sentence "This syllabus is not a contract between the school and the student. It is merely meant as a guide for the student." I always found that statement curious and, well, not being a lawyer, I'm not sure what the implications of such a statement would be in a legal proceeding, if indeed there were a major change in a policy from what was presented in the syllabus (say a change in grading scale, change in attendance policy, etc.). If it is not recognized as a contract by the course, I would think it means a lack of recourse (in a legal sense anyway) for an affected student.

I would take that to mean that school and teacher policies could change (legally) during the semester and the syllabus may not be a binding document throughout the semester in that case. For example, if the professor changed dates for exams or moved around the order of content being taught as presented on the syllabus, that would not be a big deal, but it would not be in line with what was on the syllabus. Additionally, usually colleges vote on major changes between terms, but if something pertaining to policy (grading, attendance, etc.) was changed mid-semester, that would be void on the syllabus. Having worked in public schools, one thing over the last few years we had to add to our syllabi and other published documents was an equal opportunity and non-discriminatory statement. I am sure this is something similar.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · May 10, 2013

I've been to a lot of colleges. I teach at one (not nursing). It is Atypical for a syllabus NOT to be treated like a contract. Violations of the syllabus are typically what is required for a successful grade appeal ("unfairness" is rarely successful). Where I teach, we treat them like a contract along with the student policy manual and faculty policy manual. Usually a syllabus has a line saying in effect "schedule subject to change."

AOx1 · May 10, 2013

The criteria for an A is ridiculous, and will only hurt those applying to graduate school.

SopranoKris, MSN, RN, NP · May 11, 2013

Yes, I agree...90% is the minimum error that should be acceptable for med dosaging. I always think "hmmm, don't want to kill 10% of my patients, so I'd better be 100% sure of my math!!!" :)

However, OP's issue was that to get a 4.0 in her program, the grading scale for an A was 899.3 to 900. That's less than a point deduction to get a 4.0. Less than 899.3 is a 3.5. I do think that it's a ridiculous grading scale. It's setting up good students to fail to achieve an A. It will also lower your GPA to get the 3.5, which can have an impact on getting in to a graduate program down the road.

I took Pharm last semester and I aced my med math and was able to pull off a 95% in Pharm lecture, so ended up with an overall 4.0 for the class. No rounding, no extra credit, no make-up assignments, etc. I worked my tail off to earn that grade.

I think having a grading scale that's next to impossible to earn a 4.0 means that you can't really compare students from one Pharm course at a particular school to another. It's comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. I also think it demoralizes students. No, I don't think everyone should get extra credit and spoon-fed information so we all get an A. But for students who work hard and put in the effort, I think grading scales should be somewhat consistent. Setting an impossibly high bar of less than 1 point for an A isn't very fair. It's like telling the students up front "you'll never get an A in this course".

akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · May 11, 2013

Stuff like that is also why students should also keep their syllabus. Should there be any question about a grade, they can show what the grading policy was during the course.

bonjournurse2b · May 14, 2013

FYI guys, I ended up with a B in the class. I know this is an off-topic question ... but this was my second time taking the class. I definitely have plans to go to grad school. I always assumed that they want to see A's if you retake a class. Is this going to look bad for me?

Relating back to the topic though, my friend ended up with a 95% overall and received an A-. What the heck? A 95 is EXCEPTIONAL! I feel for her :\