Kowtowing to Instructors

shock-me-sane · Jul 9, 2006

i think that there are many ways to be assertive without aggressive. i also think there is a respectful way to ask a question and a way to be rude and condescending about it.

i don't see any actual specific examples in your post so i can't comment on that. aside from the student being "pushed out of the program", how are you being punished? and how exactly did they push them out? militant program...what do you mean? i would like to know that the future nurses are also competent and usually they do look to get rid of those that aren't. i don't think they try to "break" us, but they have to break us in to a new way of thinking. and they push that. it is for a purpose.

i have found that instructors aren't all unapproachable. but they are often short in replies. to me it seems that there is just such a vast amount of information they try to cram in, there isn't much time for the "extra". i have students in my cohort who question respectfully and those that do so in a horrible manner. it seems that there is more respect given back to the ones that give it in the first place, without attitude.

now, with all that said, i am not saying my situation is like yours. but if you care to give some examples i would gladly respond to that.

llg, PhD, RN · Jul 9, 2006

i think that there are many ways to be assertive without aggressive. i also think there is a respectful way to ask a question and a way to be rude and condescending about it.
.

Exactly. The interpersonal skill it takes to "challenge" and "change" are sophisticated. Many people can't tell the difference between questioning constructively and being inappropriately challenging -- particularly when you are a beginner within a new and challenging field.

When you are brand new to a discipline and still learning the basics, it's difficult to make good judgments about many of the issues you will encounter. It can be extremely difficult for a beginner to understand everything that feeds into the decision made by an experienced nurse (or instructor). That doesn't mean the students shouldn't question or that the students might not be right sometimes and the experienced nurse wrong. However, it does mean that the beginner should be particularly careful as to HOW he/she challenges the status quo.

Obviously, none of us can comment on the particular situation discussed by the OP. We don't know the details. But on the issue in general, a lot of students (and new nurses) could be a lot more successful getting their ideas heard and making some of the changes they would like to make if they put a little more effort into learning HOW to be a change agent before they started to fix the world.

llg

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Jul 9, 2006

2 rules of college (as explained to me by my first college prof):

#1: The instructor is always right.

#2: If you want to pass, see rule #1

Nursing instructors hold great power over students and their career goals. Many, not all or even most, are quite arrogant and capricious with their use of that power.

I never thought it took 'courage' to offer more than a passing challenge to an instructor. I thought it took 'stupidity'.

I held my head down and kept my opinions to myself. The instructors didn't change my key opinions with their browbeating indoctrination. But, they also were completely unaware of their failures in this regard.

~faith,

Timothy.

SarasotaRN2b · Jul 9, 2006

2 rules of college (as explained to me by my first college prof):
#1: the instructor is always right.
#2: if you want to pass, see rule #1
nursing instructors hold great power over students and their career goals. many, not all or even most, are quite arrogant and capricious with their use of that power.
i never thought it took 'courage' to offer more than a passing challenge to an instructor. i thought it took 'stupidity'.
i held my head down and kept my opinions to myself. the instructors didn't change my key opinions with their browbeating indoctrination. but, they also were completely unaware of their failures in this regard.
~faith,
timothy.

actually, my feelings about this is that it has taken me so long to actually get a spot, if i have to bite my tongue, i will. there will be plenty of time after i get my license that i can open my mouth. i plan to be a sponge, soaking in one i need to know and being careful not to stir anyone's feathers. i've always been a very good observer, i'll see how things are before i try to stir things up.

bsweilrn · Jul 9, 2006

Here is my two cents worth.

Being a male in this profession, I have always encountered strong females.

When I went to nursing school 18 years ago, I had been a paramedic, and was very strong willed. I butted heads with the instructors immediately, and had two very long years in the program.

What I have learned in the past 16 years as a registered nurse, both teaching classes(very occasionally) or more frequently precepting students and new grads, is for students, you should try to listen to the instructors, follow their lead, and unless you feel they are giving you direction that will hurt the patient, do what they ask you. Later when you are a more mature nurse with years of experience, you will ultimately be placed in a position to teach young students and new grads. Remember how you feel today and taylor your teaching towards a more positive approach.

Nursing instructors are like your parents, they will almost always back each other against a student being agressive(they have to to keep order).

It is presumptious for a student with no nursing training or experience to think they can teach better than an instructor with years of experience.(I know, I tried, and always came out looking foolish and putting unnecessary stress on myself during an already stressful training).

Nursing school is different than business school, lots of people have differing ideas on econimics, but these Ideas won't kill people if not properly performed. That is why the instructors are so hard. Student's don't have enough knowledge to make good thoughtful decisions yet. It takes years to see the big picture. Be patient, learn and then give back when you have experience.

GOOD LUCK!

smk1, LPN · Jul 9, 2006

ditto to timothy's post and SarasotaRN. Don't jeopardize your future by antagonizing the instructors. Little, to no point or benefit in doing so.

jb2u, ASN, RN · Jul 9, 2006

let's not forget that we work "under" the professors license in clinicals. if i was the professor i wouldn't want a "know it all" type or someone that felt they could possibly know more than the professor work under my license. this is the type of person that may feel "i'll just do this procedure my way" and if something goes wrong then the professor risk their license.

and i agree to ask questions for clarification is one thing to ask to be argumentative is another. if anyone feels they could do it better then come back as a professor and try to make changes. nursing school is the time to learn not to make changes!

jay

DeeSki · Jul 9, 2006

I have to say my opinions are a little different then most posted so far. I think I can understand what the OP was trying to say. I believe that my school is actually making that transition to a "kinder, gentler" program, so to speak. I am one of those older, high powered students. Fortunately I know how to work with faculty of all ages, styles. I know when to keep my mouth shut (not often) and when to speak up for the good of the class-hey that is why they elected me president. We do have monthly faculty meetings that students are allowed to attend and speak about any issues or concerns that the faculty can address. It is interesting to watch as the professors go from mostly older women to mostly younger women and a man. I think reading the article posted on this site about working with multi-generations may help shed some light on this problem. I'm sorry that I'm rambling...I think the original OP may have been referring to lecture rather than clinical. I have only had young clinical instructors and have had no difficulties. I have to say that I have, unfortunately, seen a friend verbally mistreated by a faculty member who demeaned her, accused her of harassment and ultimately lied to her about all her professors feeling the same way in an attempt to drive my friend out. My friend had the gumption to confront (in a good way) the other instructors and found out that the one was lying and let them know as well. It is a scary situation. As I imagine it is for the older faculty members to see all the new blood coming in and taking over.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2006

let's not forget that we work "under" the professors license in clinicals. if i was the professor i wouldn't want a "know it all" type or someone that felt they could possibly know more than the professor work under my license. this is the type of person that may feel "i'll just do this procedure my way" and if something goes wrong then the professor risk their license.
jay

I came across this and wanted to offer a comment, perhaps a clarification for a common misconception. The RN's license allows for her/him to have a student in the facility under their supervision and direction. However, as far as risking their license, they are responsible for the appropriate delegation of a task to a student; if the student deliberately chooses to "do it their way" instead of the way they understood they were expected to "do it", it's their OWN future licensure they are risking. Not the instructor's.

The instructor will be held accountable for proving that the student's assignment was an appropriate one for the skill/education level. If it was, the instructor isn't the one with the problem....the student is.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2006

we had a high powered, older student in our program who very quickly started making her opinions about the program (and how it could be fixed) know to staff and the dean. she was immediately pushed out of the program.

opinions are inappropriate, undermine the purpose of why you are all there and disrupt everyone else. the "powers" had to step in and take action. perhaps an analogy would put things into a better perspective for you. a puppy that is being obedience trained must be kept to a strict regimen in the way the training proceeds or no progress will occur. puppy can't be allowed to bark at and defy the trainer and must be stopped. it doesn't mean that the trainer is being bad to the puppy, but merely enforcing order to a creature that knows nothing of what order is. a person, however, unlike a puppy, is able to think and make a conscious choice to continue their behavior or stop it. clearly, the student you speak of was more concerned with continuing their disruptive behavior rather than learn nursing.

yes, nursing is a creative profession. however, you have to learn the profession first. nursing students don't know what their role is as a professional nurse. the two or three years you spend in nursing school only introduces you to what you need to know. it takes a few more years of experience to "age" you, perfect you, bring you to bloom. and, much of this you will do on your own, after your formal schooling is over. one of my nursing professors put it this way. nursing school only gives you a few years to put together a bag of tricks that you will take out into the world to make your way with. it's what you do with what's in that bag that determine whether you will be a successful nurse or not. i think poster, bsweilrn, said it the best and said it from his own experience. i would re-read his post because he is speaking to you with wisdom that only comes from time and experience.

firstyearstudent · Jul 10, 2006

I don't think I'd ever challenge an instructor in a clinical situation unless, of course, I was certain they were making a harmful error (a situation which would be highly unlikely but possible). I am talking more about the classroom. However, I have experienced a "shut up and do as you're told" attitude from some of the clinical instructors.

Everyone in the program has experienced this and they smile, suck it up and "play the game" (as do I). I just think it is ironic that they tell us to "think critically" and to advocate for the patient to the point of challenging physician orders, then prepare us by slapping us down when we have even the most benign question. It is not an atmosphere that nurtures assertiveness, which is what they keeping telling us a nurse needs to be.

A professor that says he is always right is bad, not to mention wrong. When I went to college the first time, I had a professor who would tell us crazy stuff, then humiliate us when we believed it and didn't call him on it. Now that's a lesson worth remembering...