For students that are undecided between RN/PA

[Peeps Mcarthur]

I wanted to let anyone that is considering PA vs NP or RN know that I have experienced a semester of nursing classes, and found that the curicculum did not match my expectations nor seem appropriate for later consideration of applicability to a PA program post BSN.

I don't want to blather on about a subject that I have been vocal about since I came to the board. This debate has been worked over and over on many threads, but never before with someone that had been through nursing classes, to my knowledge.

If there is an interest expressed, I will post away and answer questions for the people that wish to discuss the topic.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Edited for off-topic content. You really didn't miss anything, just an inquiry.

[kcsun3]

Hi Peeps,

I can't speak for anyone else, and I mostly lurk, so...for whatever its worth...

I think it's comments such as the following:

"NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific."

that could be perceived as devalueing nursing.

The nursing profession has battled long and hard for recognition and validation. In the healthcare culture, traditionally anything considered "scientific" has been deemed credible, rational, and valued. The perception seems to be that medicine = science and nursing = pseudoscience/fluff. As such, nursing's contributions to healthcare have historically been devalued and trivialized. But the truth is that neither model can function as an island, and both are grounded in science. The philosophies are different. The approach is different. They complement each other. The negative/hurt feelings come from the implication that nursing is not "scientific" and therefore less valuable/worthy/esteemable.

As you have stated, it's not that one model is inherently superior to the other - it's just a matter of preference in how you choose to approach treatment and patient care in your practice.

[meandragonbrett]

Peeps,

Why don't you become a physician. If you don't already know, there's a PA board at http://www.studentdoctor.net Also, your last reply to zoe was ridiculous! Shows your maturity or lack there of....there was no reason to talk to her like that just because she spelled rational wrong! But good luck in whatever profession you go into!

Brett

[Peeps Mcarthur]

KCsun,

Yes I can see how that could come out that way if the person reading it was thinking about those other things they've heard.

Isn't the psychosocial,sociological basis of nursing what separates it from the medical model and gives it the missing qualities that make it holistic? That is the focal point that makes NP unique.

If you were to compare the two then, wouldn't those qualities be the logical dividing point?

There are just as many credits(of the same courses) of psych,sociology, and life-span development between them in thier curicculums. The separation of the two is in the way the different prerequisites are threaded into subsequent courses. That separation occurs in regards to psychology courses.

The medical model simply embraces the sciences as a basis for care and the nursing model embraces psychosocial issues as a foundation. Nursing is darn proud of that fact, it makes it holistic.

Everything can't be nursing foundation, as PAs don't claim to be psychosocial as well as medicaly based.

I hope that clears it up. It does help to have a quote to talk about. Thanks

[Peeps Mcarthur]

brett,

Did you want to input on the topic?

[kcsun3]

Peeps.

Thank you for a thoughtful, well-reasoned reply. I am enjoying our discussion.

We agree that the difference between the medical model and the nursing model is in the approach. Where our opinions deviate is in defining what those specific, unique approaches are.

You said,

"The medical model simply embraces the sciences as a basis for care and the nursing model embraces psychosocial issues as a foundation."

Many may differ with me here, but I feel the following is a more accurate portrayal:

A. The medical model and the nursing model are both founded in the sciences.

B. The medical model evaluates, diagnoses and treats a medical condition or disease.

C. The nursing model evaluates, diagnoses and treats problems the patient (and, in some cases, their family) experiences as a result of, or in response to, the medically diagnosed condition or disease. The nature of this approach inherently lends itself to holisitic care.

I am not sure if I have elucidated my thoughts very well, but hope that makes some sense and maybe is a springboard for further discussion/debate?

Anyone else? Am I the only one who thinks this way?

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Kcsun,

That's very well put. What an eloquent way to put it.

I don't want to hog the board, and I want to stay on-topic, so I'll think on it for a little bit before I comment.

[JNJ]

Peeps McArthur: Two comments:

1. Do you realize how oversubscribed the nation's PA programs are? They can, and do cream off the very best from their applications. They also look at reasons for becoming a PA and are looking for people who are clear about the role of physician's assistant.

2. As a profession, it's nurses who shape what our profession is and does; curricula are designed, by nurses, to educate to the knowledge and practice of our profession. While student input into curriculum issues is encouraged, I feel your comments relate not to the fit of the curriculum for nursing practice (which you do not yet understand), but its fit for you as an individual, undecided about profession and role.

Incidentally, as a long term patient at a major primary care facility where I have choices between MD, PA and NP, it's the NP I choose to see the majority of the times I attend. Why? Because, as an RN, I don't visit for trivial reasons and I value the breadth of understanding/experience the NP (he or she) brings to the multi-faceted problem I am presenting.

I do hope you find your 'fit' in a career choice/educational program.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

JNJ,

Chosing an NP over a PA is a personal choice that I respect. Given your profession, I can understand the basic motivation.

Of course, I would like to point something out.

It is true that PA programs only pick the top candidates, from the top candidates. Once the candidate is in, the weeding-out process continues with the difficulty and volume of the curicculum. Is NP curicculum just as difficult? That's subjective, so we can't qualify that, but it is generaly accepted that med school curicculum is difficult and voluminous. Since med schools, as well as PA schools, train in the same medical model, we can form an opinnion that PA school is more difficult to get into, and more difficult to complete.

The prerequisites are equal to or greater than that of NPs under the conditions above. No wonder PA programs are more competitive, but the same basic coursework could lead up to admission into either program, but consider that There are no specific pre-PA programs. The PA student comes from a variety of fields, even nursing, making them global in thier experience. It's also possible to get admitted to an NP program without having been a nurse, but don't most NP candidates come from one field? Then don't most NPs train in the same theory?

What should be considered when chosing a care provider to treat you? I think all of these factors should. Your care won't be that complicated at the level you will seek from either, but if one care provider is to be considered over the other based on difficulty of admissions criteria, curicculum difficulty, prerequisite background variety(as in well-rounded), then don't PAs stand out?

If someone with a BSN were to become a PA I believe that would fulfill anyone's needs for background and coursework. That would truly blend the psychosocial with the medical wouldn't it?

The factor in this case would be the science content of thier precourse work to move towards an understanding of the medical model. If this was considered, which direction do you think the subject would be compeled to move?

The one with the least resistance.

This is a compelling subject well worth exploring.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

From Kcsun

A. The medical model and the nursing model are both founded in the sciences.

The sciences, as evidenced by the curicculum focus of each, and the interpretation of the content from which the separate coursework is developed, is sufficiently distinct enough as to make each subject matter in thier distinct formats contrast to a point as to make the same subjects unrecognizeable from thier counterparts in terms.

Now in english...........maybe

The pathophysiology in the medical model is a different pathophysiology from the one in the nursing curicculum.

Because of what content is derived by the concentration of the program. In order to claim an holistic approach, nursing must connect pathophysiology to all other subjects as to make them equal in mass, not separate subjects.

Pathophysiology=100% of pathophysiology content. In order for it to be joined with other subjects, some must be taken away for a total of 100% of the content in order to make room for the addition of the holistic model. The medical model uses pathophysiology as it is.

The inverse can be said for nursing's use of psychology, and siciology as one science(psychosocial). It is seamless to the holistic model.

To the medical model they are separate aren't they? Why?

Because of how they are utilized.

[NurseAngie]

peeps....ya know i like ya, but dude....i'm gettin' a headache just reading this banter. i hope your insanity is temporary. you are on a nursing board you know. if we wanted to be pa's then we would do so. i wish you the best.

p.s. ~when i left mississippi in '99 there weren't any pa's in that state....i'm going to find out if that has changed.

ciao for now,

~angie

[Love-A-Nurse]

originally posted by nurseangie

peeps....ya know i like ya, but dude....i'm gettin' a headache just reading this banter. i hope your insanity is temporary. you are on a nursing board you know. if we wanted to be pa's then we would do so. i wish you the best.

p.s. ~when i left mississippi in '99 there weren't any pa's in that state....i'm going to find out if that has changed.

ciao for now,

~angie

well, there you are angie.