Should BSNs be paid more?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 9, 2005

To those of you who get a premium for BSN: Do you ever wonder who will get the shaft if staff cuts are in order? As a BSN, I would love to be given premium pay for my degree. If for no other reason, because I had to SPEND more $ to get a BSN vs ADN. Then again, I wonder if I would be pricing myself out of the market. It seems that in this part of the country, most dr's offices/hospitals/clinics will hire an LPN over an RN due to the $ they save in wages(All other things being equal).

That's a valid concern. But we're talking a differential of .50 to 1.00, in the long run during cost cutting efforts they cut experienced RNs like me who are making 8.00 or more than a new grad. Or RNs making 5.00 or more than LPNs.

But you make up the valid point that hospitals aren't the one's putting the value on the BSN. They want the cheapest RN for the money, which is why the BSN diff. is very low, if existant at all.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 9, 2005

You're just arguing that BSNs shouldn't get any differential because they aren't 'any better' than ADNs. Nobody said a differential should be given because someone is better than anybody else. Just a TOKEN RECOGNITION of a higher degree earned within the field.
Why does it bother you that someone might get a dollar more an hour than you simply because they hold a higher degree? A dollar. Not 50k a year. A dollar.

BINGO

I make more money than someone who doesn't have ACLS, who hasn't been at the hospital in 13 years, who doesn't precept, who doesn't do charge, who isn't certified. I think recognizing experience and education is important. It's good for retention, for staff development and satisfaction. I'm not seeing the agrument that hospitals are giving the diff because they think BSNs are better nurses, nor is that what we're advocating.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 9, 2005

There is such a thin line here.

Agreed. Which is why we're not saying BSN nurses are better than ADNs and deserve more money.

We're saying, we value education, encourage it, and here's a differential for it.

LuvCatsRN · Aug 9, 2005

Well in my ADN Program we are required to write a paper and do a presentation each semester. Until nursing education is standardized, in my opinion it should be, this debate will never end. Not so long ago nurses were trainied to perform their jobs without the need of a college degree. Sure, the degree legitamizes the demand for higher wages and more peer respect, but the infighting and lack of unity among nurses in general is of far greater concern than a few letters on a name tag.

I agree that infighting and lack of unity is a problem in the profession, but is this also being encouraged from organizations that we work for or from school programs? I had an individual from a local ADN program tell me after we introduced ourselves the first day of orientation that her instructors from her program always told her how far superior they were as nurses than the BSN grads from my university. Her statement also included that we were just great paper authors. (Her program did not require exhausting research papers) Now how should one take that on their first day trying to bond with coworkers? And no she wasn't young, she was a non-traditional student such as myself. Pity to those who don't have the ability to judge an person on their own merit but accept the nasty path of perpetuating division. I respect my coworkers - including the diploma grads. They are also a group that have not been spoken for on this issue. Thanks for setting the story straight Gerry :) We also did the horrid presentations! :uhoh21:

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 9, 2005

Agreed. Which is why we're not saying BSN nurses are better than ADNs and deserve more money.
We're saying, we value education, encourage it, and here's a differential for it.

THANK YOU ...Bravo Tweety. YOU SAID it SO well and so succinctly. I bow before you....

(just kidding) but I do respect what you just said. I wish I had put it so well.

underwatergirl · Aug 9, 2005

I didn't state that one nurse was better than the other...I think by offering higher pay to BSN's is classifying them as better than ADN's. Honestly, I am refering to ONLY NEW GRADS...not nurses that have a experience for one, or nurses that were at another level. To me ACLS, PALS, etc are a different kind of education...to me they are very much on job training, I don't view such things as inclusive with ADN or BSN education...not that they may not be required. But the nurse that goes out on her own and pushes herself to excel in her career...that is what I am talking about.

Again I don't see where I said one was better...I simply said if the BON feels they are the same, why should there be a difference...honestly whether a ADN or BSN make a certain amount more, I don't care...but my thing is...new grads and BON treating them the same...why do you have so much concern of a harder exam for BSN's??? What makes you think that ADN's would challenge it??? As for what the other NCLEX would include...I don't know except what I hear...which is additional community health and things of that accord...I don't know ask a BSN??? They are the one's who have that additional 2yrs(possibly more)...From what I have seen in the difference between ADN and BSN, I think there is something...Really it is same job/same pay until you make an effort to set yourself apart.

If the BON designed a test specific to BSN, then I say if they recognize it, then I will too...but at this time it is one exam. Again, I am refering to new grads...when speaking of people who excel in his or her career, the amount of pay raises should be different. With additional education that should be able to be recognized...but the first year...I don't think so.

I am going to say this once more, it isn't about who is better or who is worse...it is recognized by our BON who governs our nursing career.

Annette

ali_gator · Aug 9, 2005

Again they both enter as new grad RN's. If this change was to take place, I think it would affect LPN's...because I look at LPN's as the entry level into nursing...so would LPN's still exist? what capacity? would they still be a "nurse"?
We too perform nursing functions like nurses, we too are nurses...the bottom of the chain is an LPN, before you leave things such as assessments/critical thinking/more invasive tasks...things that MA's don't perform or CNA's.
So if we speak as entry level then it would be the LPN.
If the NCLEX is just a test...why is it that it can bar you from working? Or becoming legally licensed? Seriously, after school...what school leads to is the NCLEX. You can have a BSN but until you pass the NCLEX, then you are not a RN, same for ADN. That is why the NCLEX is there, that is what school gears us too...so as entry level nursings want differentials for different education then I say a different exam. Give a little take a little...jusy my .02
Annette

Annette,

What would be on this different exam? The purpose of the NCLEX is to insure a minimally safe nurse. A BSN is a college degree with a major in nursing, meaning that the education goes beyond nursing. My BSN program includes classes in history, philosophy, and religion. The purpose of these classes is to make me a more well-rounded individual-- they do not teach me additional nursing skills. How could there be a different exam? Again, the purspose of the NCLEX is to insure that one has just enough knowledge to practice safely. The purpose of a BSN program is to make one more well rounded, and prepare them for roles that extend beyond that of a bedside nurse. We're not learning additional nursing skills.

Also, the education debate is mostly concerned with registered nursing, not practical nursing. Currently, there are three ways to become a registered nurse; nursing academics are trying to narrow it down to one. There are conflicting, valid views from all sides.

underwatergirl · Aug 9, 2005

Ok Ali gator, I can see that point more of rather a degree than r/t nursing. You are right, I don't think NCLEX could test on alot of that stuff. So we are at square one again...LOL a part of me thinks that BSN's should get a differential, but another part of me screams even louder that says, new grads are on the level with ADN and both should be started off the same. What I think would be cool is this...ADN & BSN start at the same level but then as pay raises or yearly evals came along...then the BSN see's a higher pay raise...I strongly advocate for this because I remember my first year out of nursing school boy what I learned and what I started out at...it was amazing the transformation in just a year...I just don't think that the experience is yet there to warrant a difference in pay with new grads...now that you bring up that, well state it in a way I get at least...LOL

If BSN's were to recieve higher starting wages, then everyone who had every kind of education should recieve a pay raise. Whether the relevance or not...meaning is some was lets say an interior decorator, a degree in that and went back to school...if BSN's get it then they should too, so therefore straight across the board.

My biggest thing is I want to see nurses push to the limits, reach and find every additional form of education possible, from one cert. to another. I don't like to see a stagnet nurse(not saying new grads or BSN are) be given that because they did the bare minimum...I value people who want to continuously improve their lives. I think that is why I fight so hardly for new grads ADN or RN same pay with same job.

Ali gator, I do want to say this, I am am impressed with you and continously explaining it so I would understand where you are coming from...that I love...thank you for shedding light on new areas for me. Your Awesome!!!

Just on a side note, if we went to BSN entry level...soon the MSN's would want their level to be entry level, where does it stop???

Anyone have any information on North Dakota???

Thanks ANnette

ali_gator · Aug 9, 2005

Ok Ali gator, I can see that point more of rather a degree than r/t nursing. You are right, I don't think NCLEX could test on alot of that stuff. So we are at square one again...LOL a part of me thinks that BSN's should get a differential, but another part of me screams even louder that says, new grads are on the level with ADN and both should be started off the same. What I think would be cool is this...ADN & BSN start at the same level but then as pay raises or yearly evals came along...then the BSN see's a higher pay raise...I strongly advocate for this because I remember my first year out of nursing school boy what I learned and what I started out at...it was amazing the transformation in just a year...I just don't think that the experience is yet there to warrant a difference in pay with new grads...now that you bring up that, well state it in a way I get at least...LOL
If BSN's were to recieve higher starting wages, then everyone who had every kind of education should recieve a pay raise. Whether the relevance or not...meaning is some was lets say an interior decorator, a degree in that and went back to school...if BSN's get it then they should too, so therefore straight across the board.
My biggest thing is I want to see nurses push to the limits, reach and find every additional form of education possible, from one cert. to another. I don't like to see a stagnet nurse(not saying new grads or BSN are) be given that because they did the bare minimum...I value people who want to continuously improve their lives. I think that is why I fight so hardly for new grads ADN or RN same pay with same job.
Ali gator, I do want to say this, I am am impressed with you and continously explaining it so I would understand where you are coming from...that I love...thank you for shedding light on new areas for me. Your Awesome!!!
Just on a side note, if we went to BSN entry level...soon the MSN's would want their level to be entry level, where does it stop???
Anyone have any information on North Dakota???
Thanks ANnette

Annette,

You're awesome as well. There are valid points on both sides of this debate, and you've made a lot of good ones.

Some believe an MSN (Clinical Nurse Specialist) should be entry level.

I'll try and look at this from your perspective. Even if it's not practical to make a BSN the minimum now, why not encourage all nurses to pursue one within five years of entering practice? A university out here in L.A. has an RN to BSN program that takes only fifteen months.

Hospitals, insurance companies, and no doubt the AMA are loathed to see nurses pursue higher education. The fact that those responsible for marginalizing the profession are fighting against higher education for nurses should be very telling.

underwatergirl · Aug 9, 2005

Ali Gator,

I agree hun, we should def. encourage it...but some people are just happy where they are...they don't want that extra "work" some have families...that is why I advocate for pay raises for such things...also after the first year that BSN's make a higher pay increase to offset the difference.

Reality tells me what should happen, just isn't going to...i think alot of it comes from uneducation from our patients. All the way to nursing not sticking together. It is a tough road we walked down and we have come a long way from Florence, I think we have made several excellant strives in the right direction. Now we must unite and continue that fight.

Annette

ali_gator · Aug 9, 2005

Ali Gator,
I agree hun, we should def. encourage it...but some people are just happy where they are...they don't want that extra "work" some have families...that is why I advocate for pay raises for such things...also after the first year that BSN's make a higher pay increase to offset the difference.
Reality tells me what should happen, just isn't going to...i think alot of it comes from uneducation from our patients. All the way to nursing not sticking together. It is a tough road we walked down and we have come a long way from Florence, I think we have made several excellant strives in the right direction. Now we must unite and continue that fight.
Annette

Yes, nurses must unite and stop backstabbing eachother. Tribalism should be more strongly encouraged within our profession. If nurses don't take control of their profession, hospitals and insurance companies will.

Educating patients (and the public in general) starts with getting trash like Grey's Anatomy (which depicts nurses as brainless handmaidens) off the air.

People will never value nursing if they don't understand it. People will never understand nursing if negative media images are allowed to persist.

Check out http://www.nursingadvocacy.org

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 9, 2005

Some believe an MSN (Clinical Nurse Specialist) should be entry level.
I'll try and look at this from your perspective. Even if it's not practical to make a BSN the minimum now, why not encourage all nurses to pursue one within five years of entering practice? A university out here in L.A. has an RN to BSN program that takes only fifteen months.

Sorry, but some of you just don't get it.

There are new grads coming out of BSN programs, working for a year and quitting the profession. If they even survive a year. Requiring more education is not going to change that.

If someone told me that I had to go back to school for a BSN, I would quit and leave the profession. Why? Because it is just not worth it. This career field is not worth putting in that time.

I am not going to go to school for 4-6 years to clean up feces, listen to "customer service" lectures from MBA goons that have never gotten their hands dirty, and be floated hither and yon by some glorified secretary in staffing that sees my MSN and thinks that qualifies me to work in L&D for 4 hours because after all, I certainly have the "education" for it. Not to mention work rotating shifts, every other weekend and 50% or more of holidays.

And, no, requiring all of us to 4-6 year degrees, is not going to change the fact that we are needed to empty bedside commodes and care for patients when they are vomiting. Nurses will still need to work lousy shifts, still get yelled at by MDs (who think they outrank G-d). Real nurses are the ones that are physically caring for the patients real needs and know what the patient has going on. They are the ultimate care givers and the job gets dirty and ugly at times. And the vast majority of people that get six years of education, don't do it to spend the next 20-40 years getting their hands dirty.

And all the educating of the public is not going to change the fact that our job gets dirty and ugly at times.

I suggest that we go to the public and do a poll. We give them a presentation about the importance of nursing. We review the facts that nurses are THE most trusted professionals in the USA, bar none. Then we have them follow the average med surg nurse around at work, on an average day or two (when she has her allotment of 8-12 patients). We watch her miss meals, have no bathroom breaks, get cursed at by visitors for not violating HIPAA. Then she gets chewed out by her manager because her HIPAA discussion was not "customer service - pressGainey" friendly, We watch her nightshift butt get called, while sleeping, told that there is a "mandatory" staff meeting tomorrow at 1100 (she has to work the night before and after) and that she will be written up if she does not attend. We watch her as her finger gets broken because Dr. X refused to order restraints on a dementia patient (because the family thinks that restraints "are just awful"). We also show visitors in the facility, those self same members of the public that vote nurses as most trusted, proceeding to treat nurses as complete garbage. And near the end, we show our nurse getting off work late, after being required to do mandatory OT, watching the dirt off her shoes. We then poll the audience as to how many of them are willing to go to school for 6 years for this wonderful, fulfilling career field.

I don't think that we will get enough takers to supply the country's nursing needs for the next generation.

And before you say, well, the MSNs will manage care. Well, right now, we have plenty of RNs with their own patient load and "managing" the care of aides/techs/LPNs, and guess what guys? It doesn't work well. Adding an extra set of initials after the name isn't going to change the fact that the educated one needs to be giving the care, not supervising or "managing" it, for it to benefit the patient...we have plenty of MDs to supervise care.

Yes, would an MSN give me more knowledge to care for my patient? Certainly, as would a PT degree, a social work degree and medical school degree. But are we going to find enough of those applicants to do what needs to be done to care for the patient. Not likely, because the job is not worth it, in comparison with the other careers that require the same amount of time in school.

And, no, conditions do not magically improve because one legislates more educate. Ask any PharmD in a for profit hospital or a drug store pharmacy, whether his job has improved with the PharmD requirement. Most of them will still say that they are required to work harder, faster and with less support. Same with social work in many places. I know large numbers of those MSNs that have quit the field.

Not to be downer, but requiring us to have BSNs or MSNs is a lovely idea in concept....but the reality is big stretch.