Shabbos/Religious Observances

[texasmommy]

As I begin the applications process for nursing schools, I have one huuuuge concern - my religious obligations. I am not permitted to work/attend school, etc. from sunset Friday nights until an hour past sunset on Saturday nights because of the Jewish sabbath. I've heard that a lot of programs have 12hr clinicals on Saturdays...yikes! Has anyone "worked it out" with similar obligations?

[lamazeteacher]

It's too bad more Jews don't practise the faith. I saw very little of it growing up, other than lavish Bar Mitzvahs. One nice thing about Judaism is that it's respectful of other faiths and doesn't try to proslytize, but it's a rare Jew that practises the faith.

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It's a rare Jew who practises the faith in exactly the same way as another one, jlsRN. A sermon I heard at a Reform synagogue was about the Messiah coming when all Jews observed Shabbos as it was meant to be done. The problem is, that so many interpretations of Shabbos exist among Jews, that G-d would be hard pressed to determine that all of us actually did that, which indicates that the Messiah isn't likely to arrive until agreement about that occurs. The whole religion is based on interpretation, which exercises the mind and allows spirited discussions.

I'm so impressed that this thread is as long as it is, involving those of many religious factions, and we're all falling all over each other not to offend. That is a testiment to nurses' spirit of understanding others, and respect for those different than one. BRAVO!!!!

[lamazeteacher]

When I travelled to the town in Israel where Jesus was a Priest, before he established Christianity, I had an "aha" moment about the observance of Shabbos that prohibits travel in a vehicle (derived from the following). That place was so small, that if anyone hitched their animals to a wagon (forbidden to work animals on shabbos), they were heading away from the temple. The Rabbis got great attendance at services, with the restriction against that.

Unfortunately in modern times there have been some Jews who walk to and from synagogue in all kinds of weather, despite physical limitations, because of that rule. My father-in-law endangered his life regularly on bitterly cold winter Friday evenings in PA, traversing high hills on ice, in snow; and in summer heat. Maybe those who live some distance away, should be accomodated overnight.......... My mother-in-law was terribly upset that he'd not make it. She didn't go in weather like that........

[RN1989]

Last night while going through the mail, I found several articles and reports regarding religious freedom. Apparently religious freedom is getting to be a much needed topic of discussion.

The Palm Beach Post has an article in its archives from August of this year about William J. Stewart. He was fired because he wanted to take SUNDAY off as his day of worship. The EEOC sued his employer for violation of the Civil Rights Act. Although his employer (Palm Beach County) did not admit to religious discrimination, the man was reinstated and given back pay with interest.

It seems as though anyone desiring to worship any day of the week is no longer welcome to do this.

I believe that hospitals, fire stations, police stations, etc need to be staffed 24/7. The people who work these jobs deal with life and death. But the majority of other places open for business do so only to satisfy greed - the business owner wants more money and the consumer wants to have everything convenient to them 24/7 for their own pleasure. No wonder FMLA had to be put into place. Employers want their employees to give their lives to their work but no longer acknowledge that the employee has a family with obligations.

At one time in the U.S. there was no shopping on Sunday. People did not bank, get their hair cut, go to the theater. Sunday had a more reverent tone and everyone was expected to be in church or face peer pressure when they didn't show for church unless they were dead. I remember as a kid when stores started opening for business on Sundays. The blue laws kept half the store closed. You couldn't buy anything but food on Sunday because food is necessary to live but other items are not.

It seems that so many of the general population no longer holds any day of worship to be so reverent that they desire to hold it out as special. Everyone wants everything to be so convenient that they no longer want to plan ahead so that they have what they need when the store is closed. Stores close on Thanksgiving and Christmas and I don't hear people in my community complaining nearly as much as they do about stores that close to allow their owners a day of worship.I hear so many people believe in religious freedom as long as they don't have to accomodate for it - whether the other person desires to worship on Sunday, Saturday, or Thursday. Reminds me of the Puritans. They came to the New World for religious freedom - but only THEIR religious freedom. They did not desire for anyone to hold religious views that were different than their own.

[Josh L.Ac.]

No one, no matter how naive about another's religion, has the right to criticise it. It's religion! Not an excuse to make others wrong.......

Forced female circumcision.

Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.

Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.

It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.

Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.

I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.

Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.

Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

But I get your point, many "religious" practices, including Christian ones in this country, are wrong and oppressive and nothing wrong with saying so.

This thread primarily isn't about those extremes however. Where do people still stone for working on the Sabbath? Also, killing one's own kids because God tells you to is not a religious practice - it's primarily schizophrenia, so that's not a good example.

[Josh L.Ac.]

Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

There is the catch - how do you point out the ethical flaws in religious and cultural beliefs without being blinded by your own?

But as a secular humanist, I do think we can come up with something better.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

There is the catch - how do you point out the ethical flaws in religious and cultural beliefs without being blinded by your own?

But as a secular humanist, I do think we can come up with something better.

Is that always necessary? Can't we sometimes just keep quiet about our own beliefs and let others have theirs?

I'm not talking about whether or not someone is oppressing another individual or causing harm.

Otherwise, I agree. You're going to have to step on some toes to be heard and to institute change.

[Chloe'sinNYNow]

Forced female circumcision.

Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.

Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.

It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.

Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.

I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.

Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.

Actually Josh, this is a perfect example of why fundamentalist extremism needs to fade away.

Many Eastern religions are symbolic, not literal. For example "an eye for an eye" is not what many think as being vengeance sought for poking out an enemy's eye, but a commercial monetary trade. I'll give you this for that, but not actual physical act of battery.

There's a whole system of trade that spoke in different terms than we understand it. One more reason for the diverse branches seen in Judaisim for example. The belief systems of how to interpret the testament. Which is also reasoning for why some keep kosher and some don't.

One cannot blasphemize (is this a word?) all religions for one's own lack of understanding. That leads to bigger and scarier things.

I try to look at it this way...it's called "faith" for a reason. If I believe so deeply about something, it is because I have faith in it.

Then again, I don' t drive my faith around on my bumper, nor shove it in anyone's face or bring it into the workplace or anywhere I don' t think it belongs. It is what moves me; something else is bound to move someone else. I can respect that.

Live and let live. There's a mantra for us. I think Lucy in The Peanuts used to espouse it.

Chloe

[woody62, RN]

I was born, raised and have practiced my faith as a Roman Catholic. I have also had the experience of worrying about my mortal soul because I was forced to say the Lord's Prayer, in a public school. And a good many people did not realize that the manner in which I say the Lord's Prayer is different from many Protestant faiths. And by doing so, I was committing a mortal sin. And I could not opt out, by not saying it, because my teacher would question me about why I was not saying the prayer with the rest of my class.

I have also had the wonderful experience of caring for people whose religious beliefs were very different from mine, including Orthodox Jews. I learned very rapidly the reason for many of the small centers where the Orthodox gather for their services, they could only work so far before it became work. The biggest problem I experienced was with the old men and women who insisted, in spite of being hospitalized, of observing all their religious practices, including fasting. I soon learned which Rabbi to call and have him come in and explain the importance of meals while a person was sick. Or allowing us to do certain treatments.

The individuals and churches I have a problem with are those that tell me my beliefs are wrong and that I am condemned to hell because I have not accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Or that I follow a man in Rome who is not appointed by God and therefore He cannot know what is correct for me or other Catholics. The most tolerant people I ever had an experience with is the Orthodox Jews. They do not make any assumptions about my religious beliefs or practices. They did not pass judgment on my Church, unlike so many of my fellow Christians. I would rather live with neighbors, such as Orthodox Jews or observant Muslims because they are both the least judgment of all religious groups I've ever experienced.

Woody

[crissrn27, RN]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the great info! This is a great discussion!

[DutchgirlRN, ASN, RN]

not trying to be a smartie pants here, but what do hospitals in israel do? i can pretty much guarantee that pts are not left unattended during the sabbath. i'm betting that work like caring for the sick would be excused.

thanks tazzi! that's the way i see it too.

p.s. i have never heard of nursing clinicals any other time than during the daylight hours mon thru fri. work, of course, is a whole different story.

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christmas in holland:

in mid-november dutch television broadcasts the official arrival of st. nicholaas and his helper black piet live. coming by steamer from spain, each year they dock in the harbor of a different city or village. wearing a traditional bishop's robes, sinterklaas rides into town on a white horse to be greeted by the mayor. in the weeks before st. nicholaas day, december 5th, sinterklaas goes around the country to determine if the children have behaved. he and his black piet helpers visit children in schools, hospitals, department stores, and even at home. the bakeries make speculaas, a molded spice cookie of the saint. during this time children put out their wooden shoes with wish-lists and a carrot or maybe a saucer of water, for the horse. when st. nicholaas comes by children find their initials made of chocolate, candy treats, and little gifts in their shoes.

the dutch celebrate sinterklaas on december 5th with family parties which is when gifts are exchanged. the dutch feast of saint nicholaas is about giving, for "it is in giving that we receive." in holland there are two christmas days, december 25th and 26th. both are celebrated as a quiet holiday with family and friends.

[lamazeteacher]

Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

But I get your point, many "religious" practices, including Christian ones in this country, are wrong and oppressive and nothing wrong with saying so.

This thread primarily isn't about those extremes however. Where do people still stone for working on the Sabbath? Also, killing one's own kids because God tells you to is not a religious practice - it's primarily schizophrenia, so that's not a good example.

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Before the "intifada" (the stoning of Jews by Palestinians) in Israel, in 1985, I'm sad to say that Jews stoned others who may or may nor have been Jewish, for driving on shabbos (see earlier comment). To resolve that, the police (again with the ropes), closed off large areas from Friday night until Saturday night, to prevent driving there.

I think Josh was referring to ancient Abraham's attempt to sacrifice his son Isaac according to G-d's order, which he then heard G-d recant, in the nick of time. It was thought to be a test of Abraham's allegiance to G-d. Personally, I can't conceive of so cruel a G-d, so I think maybe Abraham's hearing wasn't so good, and for a nano second, he almost did the unthinkable, but came to his senses (no pun intended) in time.

Rabbis have spent considerable time debating that act, without coming to the conclusion that maybe G-d didn't say it...........After all, nobody else heard it............ I hope no one will think I'm sacreligious saying that, but I think it's high time we looked at the possibility of error After all, the Bible was written by men who derived their information from other men, in what could be called the "whisper game".

By the way, in Toronto, the official "blue nose" place in Canada, Jews were allowed to sell bagels in the downtown Jewish area on Sunday mornings in the 1940s, (before commerce was allowed 7 days a week) They didn't work Saturdays, so it was an effort to be fair. (Believe me it took a lot of lawyers to persuade the city government to allow it.)