LPNs in ICU

Nurses General Nursing

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Our hospital recently brought LPNs into ICU, and we are having some trouble adjusting to the change. They were brought in to our units because we have lost so many RNs recently, and have not been able to replace them. Please don't think I am putting LPNS down, I am not. I was an LPN for four years before I was an RN, and I have a great deal of respect for them. The two that have come in to the unit are sweet wonderful girls with a lot of knowledge and they work very hard. The real problem is the limitations placed on them In our state LPNs are not allowed to give IV pushes, hang blood, or hang and titrate drips. They cannot measure hemodynamics, and cannot take verbal orders from a physician. So an RN must do all of these tasks for them, as well as take on a full patient load of her own. The LPNs get very frustrated too when they need something done for their patient and the RN who is supposed to be covering her can't get away from her own patient to handle a problem. We have tried to have an LPN and an RN share four patients, with the LPN doing meds and treatments, and the RN doing assessments, drips and the like, but this has not worked out either. To make matters worse, some of the RNs are hostile to the LPNs, and give them a hard time. Most of us have been supportive of them, but a small number of the RNs have made things difficult in numerous ways. Most of it is very subtle, and is difficult to take anything specific to our unit manager. A few of the docs have also expressed discomfort with the LPNs being in a critical care area. Again, I am not complaining about the LPNs, I am just looking for some feedback and advise on ways to organize care and make this situation a little easier on everyone.

I guess it would be hard because RNS have to take care of their own pts and then cover the LPN. The LPN has to run around and find the RN to do the things the hospital doesn't permit them to do and then the RN gets resentful because they still have to take care of their own patients and the LPN gets resentful because they feel like they can't do their job. It seems like it can get a bit dangerous. Not because of incompetence , but because of too much thrown at one person. As for the mortality thing,did the director have research to back it up????Just curious.

No, she just read it off her copy. it was an american study so it wouldn't be applicable because canadian LPN's have a different scope of practice here. You're right though, to drop a bomb like that, it should be backed up by case studies. Our medical director did us a great disservice by letting that go through. :(

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by Dayray

From what i understand the not takeing verbal orders is a medicaid issue. It has to with, care haveing to be cordinated by an RN there for the RN must be the link between the Doctor and other staff ie LPN's

.

Hi Dayray..:)

If it's a medicaid issue...why doesn't it effect all the other states, when LP/VNs can take verbal orders???

PA's nurse practice act does not that LPNs can't take verbal orders! That is the facilities interpretation of what it says!

And NO the practice act in PA is not similar to Ohio. The PA

practice act only states that LPNs can not do the following:

"The LPN is not authorized to administer the following intravenous fluids:

(A) Antineoplastic agents.

(B) Blood and blood products.

© Total parenteral nutrition.

(D) Titrated medications and intravenous push medications other than heparin flush. "

:cool:

originally posted by brownms46

i'm totally lost here...and i don't understand your reasoning at all!!! i mean...did you read the post from rninicu...where she wrote that the lpns in her unit have taken critical care courses...which include acls??? and that the problem wasn't that the lpns couldn't do the skills needed...but were restricted from doing so???:confused: and why would an experienced er lpn be more effective in an icu or ccu for that matter???:confused: in your er...the only thing the lpns can do...that the ones in rninicu's unit can't is give blood!! no where did rninicu..express that she or the other rns in her unit...weren't comfortable with lpns that are in their unit!

also what makes you think that an experienced med-surg rn would make a good float to a ccu...just because they are acls?? sure they can give ivps, hang blood, and titrate drips. but who is going to assist them in managing those drips, the pts with hemodynamic monitoring, manage the vents, assist with line placements. titrating drips require more knowledge than can be gained by completing an acls course! will that med-surg rn with acls know what that 12 lead ekg is saying, what that waveform is telling them, what lvedp is...when waveform calculations are done, what drug needs to be ready when inserting a swan...understand the correlation of pad and pcwp, what irv is, and when it can be applied...or why...or what a vq mismatch means???

please...enlighten me...as i'm sitting here totally:confused:!!!

and please help me understand why an lpn can give blood, and not abxs???:confused:

i didn't say the plan was an end all to the situation. but instead of repeating past posts of frustration, i thought i'd offer another approach. the med-surg rn's won't be "new" forever...and it will take time to become familiar with ccu care. my suggestion for er lpn's was becuase it was mentioned the ccu manager wasn't willing to remove them completely. if i had to work with an lvn, i'd rather work with one that can "anticipate" what might come next after any given emergent procedure or treatment, as opposed to being ???lost???. they can grab treatment equipment and set it up without me having to do it myself. one less step i have to do.

a bigger issue here is that there aren't any ccu staff available. it's not like new nurses are jumping at the chance to train as ccu nurses, at least that's what i see in my neck of the woods. i myself don't care to strictly be a ccrn, though i'm occassionally floated to the unit. my suggestion with time would work, but the unfortunate thing about it all is staff gets burnt-out waiting for the "education" to kick in, let alone sub-standard patient care. i won't get into my frustrations, as i said, this had been addressed over and over again in previous posts. can't add anymore to what has already been said!

s_bsn

ps...lpn's can hang blood, not antibiotics in my state. why? you'll need to ask the state that question.

In California LPN's can take a verbal or telephone order that is within their scope of practice, (PO, IM, SQ meds or whatever is needed in their scope), but I have to sign (note) it off.

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by StrawberryBSN

I didn't say the plan was an end all to the situation. But instead of repeating past posts of frustration, I thought I'd offer another approach. The med-surg RN's won't be "new" forever...and it will take time to become familiar with CCU care. My suggestion for ER LPN's was becuase it was mentioned the CCU manager wasn't willing to remove them completely. If I HAD to work with an LVN, I'd rather work with one that can "anticipate" what might come next after any given emergent procedure or treatment, as opposed to being ???lost???. They can grab treatment equipment and set it up without me having to do it myself. One less step I have to do.

A bigger issue here is that there aren't any CCU staff available. It's not like new nurses are jumping at the chance to train as CCU nurses, at least that's what I see in my neck of the woods. I myself don't care to strictly be a CCRN, though I'm occassionally floated to the unit. My suggestion WITH TIME would work, but the unfortunate thing about it all is staff gets burnt-out waiting for the "education" to kick in, let alone sub-standard patient care. I won't get into my frustrations, as I said, this had been addressed over and over again in previous posts. Can't add anymore to what has already be

S_BSN

S_BSN....I have a hard time believing we are reading the same posts..:confused:!! So I guess I will remain :confused: by your post!

Let's try this. Please show me where in the CA nurse practice act, where LVNs are restricted in the way, that you have post! :cool:

PS...LPN's can hang blood, not antibiotics in my state.

Why? You'll need to ask the State that question.

In fact..I will even give you the website link to help you out a little:cool:

http://www.bvnpt.ca.gov/pdf/vnregs.pdf

brownms....i'm sorry you are so confussed...and yes...i have read what few other suggestions exsist on this bb. after many of your posts that you stated other episodes of confussion, i read your suggestion for us rn's to "band together", which is a great and basic concept.

i couldn't copy and paste the california bvn section that discusses iv therapy/blood transfussions and lpn's, but please help yourself to read section 2542. and 2542.1. i'm sure this will enlighten you. please get back to us and let us know what you've learned and are no longer confussed about.

again (x3...?) i will state, this is not a fix-all suggestion, just the possibility of the start of a solution i'm not here to debate how the suggestion will not work. i only offered an idea, that could work. its your option to disagree, if you feel the need.

your statements towards my suggestion remind me of an inflexible person sitting at a meeting waiting for the chance to say "no...this is bs...it won't work!!! bah-humbug!!!! i hope i've simply read your posts wrong. the nursing field does not need more "nothing will work" attitudes. if you are to become a rn, please be more open to mere suggestions, and let's take further discussion that is not related to this post offline.

s_bsn

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

S_BSN...I won't even comment on the tone of your latest post...but let me say this...there was nothing in MY post meant to demean or belittle you...so please keep the sarcasum to yourself!

Now...I may have misled you when I posted that link..:).

Please check out the following link when you have time...and let me know what you think. It seems the board felt a need to clarify what it meant by" IVFs". I wonder why..?:cool:

http://www.bvnpt.ca.gov/pdf/availsecmodtext.pdf

And who is "US"???

OoOh...I almost forgot...I still haven't found the section that states an LVN must have verbal orders "signed off" off by an RN..:cool:

brownms,

my original response was really to rninicu. i'm sorry you don't get it, sorry you're confused and sorry you think "i'm" being sarcastic. maybe its your tone that is a little sarcastic? at any rate, i can't and won't battle the who, what, where and why of my meager suggestion. what you are refering to has nothing to do with this bb. again, let's talk offline.

s_bsn

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

:chuckle: I have long since stopped even referring to "your meager suggestion"! I was asking you to clarify a statement you made about what LVN's can, and can't do! It was you who brought it up...not me! So if I ask you to show me where the CA nurse practice acts says what you stated...it has nothing to do with this BB??? I will say it again...I'm totally :confused: by your posts! But I will also say again I will stay confused by them! Meaning...don't bother giving me an explanation! Sorry I didn't make myself clearer in stating that previously!!

Remember YOU did tell me to read the very section of the link "I" posted, and get "back to us"! And it was YOU who stated ..

".,You'll need to ask the State that question"
... when asked why an LVN could give blood, and not ABX...(which is the most freq use of a secondary line)....and made no sense at all. So I did just that! But I guess...that you didn't expect the response to come back the way it did. If the board meant for LVNs to not give ABXs they would have clearly stated this. Since they decided to modify their original statement..it is clear this was never their intent! :cool: And still no evidence of your other statement of LVNs having to have verbal orders signed off by an RN! I dislike reading statements made that the nurse practice acts, says this or that...and it doesn't!

Now as far as this having nothng to do with this BB...I have NO clue again as to what you're talking about! But again.. don't bother to explain! Because the nurse practice act is pertinent to this BB, and pertinent to this thread! Since RNinICU's original post stated, that it was the nurse practice act in that state, which restricted the LPNs in that unit from doing what they were capable, and trained to do!

And if you wish to take this offline...go right ahead! But "I" will continue to seek the facts out...no matter that it conflicts with someone's else's version of the truth, and post it on this BB...whenever I see fit to do so! :cool:!

Thank you for the enlightening discussion...however confusing..:)!

originally posted by strawberrybsn

rn inicu,

i've been a lpn and now bsn (12 years). i currently work in the er where there are lpn's who are acls and pals certified. they can start an iv, hang ns & lr ivf's, transfuse blood and im, sq & po meds. they can't do initial assessments, triage, iv antibiotics or pushes. there are also other things they cannot do, but what they can do, they do very well.

i would not have been comfortable working as a lpn in the ccu, but i think lpn's can work in the ccu. as a rn, i would be more comfortable with an experienced er lpn or an experienced med-surg rn with credentials (acls). i'd start by figuring out and documenting what your lpn's can do per your state laws, versus what your med-surg rn's can do per your hospital protocols, versus what your ccrn's can do per your hospital protocols. (this will make sense in a minute). you'll have to determine how staff is budgeted in your unit. is it by $$, acuity or patient specific scores that determine acuity? why? because one of the reasons lpn's are considered in the ccu is their lower salary. they can fill the shortage need at a cheaper rate. your manager is lpn "friendly" so show her that by creating an alliance with the er, she can float er lpn's to your unit based on your current patient census and acuity's. if your hospital "calls off" med-surg rn staff for low census, find out who's experienced with credentials and float those nurses to other needed departments (i.e. your ccu). your lead or charge would determine day-to-day acuity's based on your manager's direction (she'll need to make guidelines) and determine if staffing an er lpn to pick up patients that need less rn specific care is appropriate. or, if a rn is more suited for your census acutity. since your manager is lpn "friendly" no use in never saying a lpn is appropriate. her guidelines should clearly validate when to staff a lpn or rn from the float or call off pool. and i know, "float" staff can sometimes be burdensome too. but once specific staff is floated to your department, but after time they become familiar and its not so bad.

this solution has holes to fill in too, but it's a blueprint start. you and your management's decision for lpn's can gain from it. let me know if you need clarity on something i might not have elaborated on -and- if it's considered and works for you!

s_bsn

i had to think about this a while before i responded. i am also not sure what you are suggesting. i don't see how floating er lpns to icu would help. they would be working under the same restrictions as the lpns currently working in our unit, and would be further hampered by the lack of icu training.. the problem right now is that our acuity has been so high, that there are no patients the lpns can handle without a lot of help from the rns, which just increases our workload. our er staff, even the rns could not handle a lot of our patients. the er staff stabilizes patients, and sends them to us. they do not manage iabps, vents, or dialysis. when they have a vent patient waiting for transfer to us, there is an rt there with the patient at all times. and our rn staffing is so low throughout the house that there is no one else to float into icu.

the original inquiry was for any suggestions on how to organize care and allow the rns and lpns to support each other, instead of resenting each other. i appreciate your very thoughtful response, but i don't think it can be applied in our unit.

I agree, RNinICU, and I typed a similar response as yours earlier and got booted offline...LOL!

ER and ICU are different practice arenas and we're not interchangeable... I did some ER when I was younger, and my ER will always welcome me in a pinch to help out....BUT I'm SURE they would much rather have a CEN with them than me when a multi- trauma rolls through their doors...! LOL!

My thoracic surgeons fully expect me to be able to set up a 'mini OR' and open a sternotomy under sterile field when necessary. A postop CABG/MVR who develops a coagulopathy and tamponades... cardiogenic shock, IABP, TTP and 6 vasoactive titrating drips...being kept alive with little boluses of Epi while we reopen her and suck out huge clots around her heart...she's in ARDS, I'm pumping blood products in like crazy, she's acidotic in DKA... she's hemmorhaging peripherally and clotting centrally....these are busy, busy patients and need nurses who can see the big picture...now, helpers to task are GREAT here, (keep up with bloodsugars, measuring CT bleeding, controlling peripheral bleeding, help keep track of labwork, etc) ...but as EXTRAS not as part of the staff mix!

Scary thought to think I might have a patient like the above in RNinICU's hospital....PLUS be responsible for 3 OTHER patients and have 1/2 my nursing team not recognizing how serious this is!

(And yes, this patient is one of many who MADE IT and is doing OK!! Makes all the hard work worthwhile!!! :)

I'm proud to say our metroplex stats just came out...the heart program I work in is rated 2nd in the area..(and we're up against Baylor and Parkland...and the rest of the 'big guys'). We're small but we have great results and it's great to be a part of that! :)

But I'd hate to try and give this great care with your staffing dilemna, RNinICU...I've been thinking about you ever since you started this thread and my heart really goes out to you.

(((HUGS))) Let us know how this all turns out....hope you can convince the big wigs this is not good....if they don't listen they will lose all their good nurses....cuz they won't want to work unsafe with zero support. They'll end up with the nurses who don't care, or don't really recognize the gravity of the situation...Good luck!!! :o

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