Is this the publics perception of nurses? - page 10

i am a charge RN in a cvicu. yesterday i took care of a man that was pod1 5 vessel cabg on a balloon pump and multiple drips. i had post op'd the pt the previous day so i had developed a repor with... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    The ONLY added-value a BSN will have for ME is the possibility to teach future *ADN* or BSN student nurses one day...that's it. I don't see ANY difference among my coworkers who holds a BSN, Diploma or ADN (and indeed, with some, I have NO clue, nor do I give a damn.). If I as a coworker and RN herself, cannot see the difference, how can I expect the public I serve to? Or to CARE?

    Oh, and this argument FOR THE VIABILITY OF and NEED FOR ADN PROGRAMS is NOT cyclic, as you assume. Even as recently as 1997 when I graduated, the instructors and director of the nursing program told us we would have to "fight" for jobs, (no nursing shortage in Southwest Oklahoma then). AND yes I WAS discussing NURSING STUDENT STATS, not current work force. But hey, guess what, the newly graduated BSN's were not getting hired over me. We were ALL green and useless in their eyes as graduate nurses who had a lot to prove.

    So if you ask ME, a practicing RN, (and a good one), when a BSN degree is needed to help ME advance MY status in MY current career, it is not any time soon. It won't make me a better nurse in the area I work in, either. I am only pursuing it to open OTHER doors that may not be bedside-nursing related...(I wish to teach, actually). That and it would be for my personal growth and satisfaction, sure as HELL not to impress John Q. Public, my coworkers or YOU.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Dec 29, '02
  2. by   Q.
    As a BSN nurse, I felt I learned far more ON THE JOB than any school. Schooling, whether it's an Associates or a Bachelor's, is prepartory for entry-level practice, certainly not meant to make you an expert practitioner.

    As a Bachelor's in Computer Science grad, my friend felt she learned far more ON THE JOB than any school.

    As a Bachelor's in PT grad, my friend felt she learned far more ON THE JOB than any school.

    My point? No one said (or should say) that a BSN nurse is "better" than an ADN nurse, and I think people often compare ADNs to BSNs and say "well, that ADN could prime that tubing much better." So?! Is THAT what a nurse is?

    I DO know that I am thankful for all the non-nursing courses I took, because that's what makes me a person. I am a wife and daughter and sister first, also a member of the human race, before I was ever a nurse.
  3. by   Pretzlgl
    Originally posted by Susy K
    I DO know that I am thankful for all the non-nursing courses I took, because that's what makes me a person. I am a wife and daughter and sister first, also a member of the human race, before I was ever a nurse.
    Wow, that's what makes a person a person? What makes ME a person are my likes/dislikes, personality, values, morals, ethics, contribution to society, spirituality, etc. etc. I always hear from bachelors prepared folks that all the classes taken make for a more well rounded individual. Funny, my brother clepped out of every irrelevant course he could. That is great for your personal experience, but YOUR experience is not for everyone. And I know, I know, you did not say that....but Susy, you imply it.
  4. by   hapeewendy
    while I do think the higher the education the more respect nurses as a profession would recieve I also believe that the bscn degree progam needs to be revamped in a major way and incorporate much of the college type teachings into it...
    it doesnt have to be an extreme either or school of thought as some people believe
  5. by   Sleepyeyes
    I disagree; I have seen nursing evolve from the diploma programs into what we have today. The basic reason that nursing went to the college programs instead of the hospital-based programs was because nurses wanted better pay and more respect, and the ANA erroneously assumed that being able to call themselves a "professional" nurse would net them more pay and more respect.
    Well, it didn't happen.
    I know Masters degree holders who make about the same as I do, while the cost of their education was quite high.

    If education is the measure of your intellect and self-worth as a nurse, then by all means, get it if it makes you happy.

    But in terms of wage compensation, I think it makes more sense that the ADN program is the educational standard for RN, not the BSN. Unlike many other professions, nurses have to reconcile themselves to a lifetime of education, just to keep up with trends in the field. I'm sure that many of us have much more than the equivalent of a BSN degree in their specialty.

    I have nothing against BSN's; I only need a few more classes to have my BSN, and will eventually get it. But right now, my goal is to get certification and bedside experience, because one thing I've noticed is, my patients respect any nurse who can quickly establish the fact that she/he knows WTF they're doing, and does it expertly.
  6. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by Sleepyeyes
    [B...one thing I've noticed is, my patients respect any nurse who can quickly establish the fact that she/he knows WTF they're doing, and does it expertly. [/B]
    AMEN!!!!!!!!! (I have never been asked by a patient, are you an RN or an LPN)
  7. by   nurspract
    And here lies a huge part of the problem partly because nurses can't seem to unite & fight against these sterotypical images!!! We're too busy fighting amoung ourselves regarding our status!!!

    Cheers - Moe.

    I totally agree with you here.....
    Most people still don't know that a Nurse Practitioner has a Masters Degree and think a P.A. has more education...
  8. by   Pretzlgl
    I second that AMEN
  9. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    originally posted by pedirn
    as a manager (please no rotten tomato throwing!!), i have observed that newly graduated adns are far more capable as staff nurses than their bsn counterparts. i have been both, and felt better prepared as an adn graduate to do floor nursing. my bsn was just a piece of paper that i needed to go to graduate school. i learned far more about bedside nursing from my adn program.
    i believe that diploma & those adn programs transformed from previous diploma models are much better than even the bsn programs. so no tomato throwing here :wink2:. it's a shame that the bsn programs can't be more modeled like the old diploma programs are (were). most bsn programs don't start the nursing courses & clinicals until the junior year. nursing courses & clinicals should be incorporated from the freshman year & continue throughout the program & not be cramped into the last two years...leaving many students with unexposed experiences & ultimately feeling insecure. if students get four years of didactic as well as clinical exposure, then they would be more comfortable & competent in their overall nursing assessment & critical thinking skills.

    most of the rn-bsn bridge programs only teach a higher level of nursing leadership role, community nursing, & some perhaps offer critical care courses. personally, i feel that statistics should be left for the graduate level education as those students will need it for studies that they might or...depending on the degree...will have to conduct themselves.

    with that said, i believe since most of the diploma programs have been phased-out or restructured into adn programs, and they are more accessible, perhaps they should be the point of entry at this time because of the nursing shortage...they will be considered as *technical nursing* mind you...but at some time in the distant future...diploma/adn nurses could bridge into the bsn program as the bsn prepared nurses are considered the start level of *professional nursing*. it always puzzled me that there hasn't been a different nclex-rn to separate the difference in education between the diploma/adn prepared & the bsn prepared rns...being as though there are additional nursing courses taught...like there's only one more year of nursing courses between lpns & adn rns...but that's another issue altogether. i disagree with phasing-out the lpn programs as many also provide individuals, including those second career folks, the opportunity for exposure to rewarding nursing career with future options for growth. once obtaining the lpn license, these nurses can also bridge into either the lpn-rn bridge programs or in some cases, lpn-bsn programs (yes, they're out there folks & do value the lpns' prior education...they're just slow in coming across the board) if they so choose to.

    lpn programs are designed to teach nursing at a very basic level at the request of rns years ago; as a result, lpns are not allowed to perform certain *tasks* but they're taught rationales behind why certain "tasks" are done...au contraire to what many newer rns think. originally, the lpn programs were created because of a similar nursing shortage that we have today; but the difference is that rns at that time were threatened by the lpns & demanded limitations to their scope of practice including supervising them by instituting co-signatures of their patients' chart. at the beginning, that wasn't a problem & it was quite satisfactory; but now, its become impractical as the patient/nurse ratios have shifted to the point of being unsafe as patient acuity have increased tremendously due to manage care insurance companies trying to reduce cost. perhaps the point of entry should be with the lpns as the *technical nurse* with the exception of aas or with more months of schooling & they're given the same amount of education as the diploma/adn rns of today, then rns of tomorrow could be freed from having to co-sign & over see everything the lpns do...giving the lpns more autonomy. i know, i know , everyone will be saying that why don't you just make them rns but i still feel that the nclex-rn should, at that point, be reserved for bsn level. this would be, of course, after the bsn point of entry was established as the only rn entry....years down the road....after the nursing shortage is over. why can't we follow the canadians' lead on this??? this is of course a rhetorical question but anyone is welcome to answer it.

    happy new year - cheers!
    moe.
  10. by   Q.
    Originally posted by Pretzlgl
    Wow, that's what makes a person a person?
    I was waiting for someone to pick that statement apart after I posted it. Thanks for taking the carrot.

    I think you know what I meant. If my entire time was spent learning all about nursing, I truly feel life would be boring. There is much more out there than nursing, or my job - whatever that is. What makes me a person is my experiences, yes - but part of those experiences is the fact that I can't do time-travel. Therefore, to learn about what makes us HUMAN (such as art, music, literature and history) I have to read it. If I limited my view of the human race on just what's in my teeny tiny backyard, well, I'd be missing alot.
  11. by   Q.
    Originally posted by MishlB
    AMEN!!!!!!!!! (I have never been asked by a patient, are you an RN or an LPN)
    I have, and when we called another hospital in another city to inquire about my FIL, we asked "are you the RN taking care of him?" Why? Because too many times people have intentionally misled people into thinking they are the nurse.
  12. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Oh, what makes you a person is your FORMAL education???? PUHHHHLEEZE!!! Is anyone really THAT shallow? Ask Lee Iacocca or Bill Gates (like 'em or not). Now, what about life experiences? What about NON-traditional education? Did Mother Theresa have a college degree to make her so exceptional? How bout Rush Limbaugh? ( I personally dislike him, but he is articulate and intelligent and a WELL-respected conservative talk host despite being a college drop-out).

    I think, Suzy, you get my point. Education is but a very SMALL part of who I am....I am many things, mother/daughter/wife/sister, volunteer, military veteran ( a HUGE education in itself, if you did not know), nurse......many of those roles don't need a formal 4-year education to ensure absolute success, much less DEFINE who I am....I am MUCH more than that. I would never sell myself that short, and neither should anyone else.

    So anyhow, okey dokey, make it all one-point entry, to "lessen confusion" among ourselves, the rest of the medical community and the public at-large, if you insist. But make it the ADN-level, cause that is where the vast majority of the RN pool comes from now and will in the immediate future. The nursing shortage is not predicted to get better, but much deeper in the next 10 years, after all.

    Anyhow, let 'em get ADN's and advance as they choose and in the manner that works for them. Distance education and online programs are much easier to pursue than traditional BSN ones and this is the ONLY way I am able to pursue mine. I dare say I am not alone in this situation. It's not about lack of ambition, but like I keep on saying ad nauseum, *access*. Like it or not, we need RN's and to raise it to all-BSN entry at this point will be cutting our own throats, unless we convert all ADN programs to BSN in the sam critical time period I speak of. Those are the choices as I see it.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Dec 29, '02
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    psstttt. This is no secret.... LPN's are nurses too...and no one is misleading anyone when he/she is an LPN and states he/she is a "nurse".
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Dec 29, '02

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