Convicted felons and nursing

PhoenixTech, LPN · Jul 23, 2011

op, you hear the word "felony", and automatically classify anyone who has one as being too dangerous to work around vulnerable populations, however, if there ever was a comprehensive study of all known abusers in the health care system, you'd be surprised to find that most of if not all of them had no prior convictions/record before licensure. furthermore, their crimes are committed after licensure and never picked up because until recently, background checks weren't required for renewal.

"also, why is someone who is convicted, passing a background check at a health care facility?"

because convicts, either misdemeanor or felony, have a right and opportunity to show that they have learned from their pasts and are rehabilitated, ready and willing to take on the role of upstanding members of their communities. in order to reasonably justify your train of thought concerning following rules and consequences, the whole world would have to be raised the exact same way with the exact same opportunities and nuclear units. then you'd be better able to say that so and so should not be in health care because they are convicted of whatever. since in this world there are varying degrees of moral input, upbringing, opportunities and beliefs, you cannot in good conscious be as general as you are being in your judgment.

as emergencynrse has pointed out, what constitutes a felony vary from state to state. in my state, simple assault and battery is a misdemeanor. should someone convicted of this be allowed to work in health care? it is very upsetting to continue to hear about these stories of elder and child abuse in health care, but if you ban everyone who has a criminal history from entering into the field guess what?......it would still happen. for everyone that is reported, there are twenty that are not. something as simple as pinching a patient for soiling himself after you just changed him is abuse, yet it goes on all the time. the people doing the pinching have no criminal histories.......

i do find this whole situation sad, that people can be denied careers based on transgressions over 10-15 years old because of the stigma of "felony, conviction, arrest, dui, etc...." there are and should continue to be time bars on felony convictions. there are and should continue to be case by case examinations of convictions. there are and should continue to be psychological consults in some of these case by case convictions. there are and should continue to be mandatory drug evaluations in some of these case by case convictions. i say allow someone to prove that they are not the same person they once were, nor do the same things they once did and should that proof be forthcoming, praise god that he is still in control and let them get on with their lives.

xtxrn, ASN, RN · Jul 23, 2011

Yesterday on the news, they announced that Illinois JUST passed a law forbidding sex offenders and felons who committed crimes directly on a person or people from working in healthcare. I was dumbfounded. A lot of places have done their own background checks for years- but after finding an ER doc (think it was ER- know it was a doc) who was a sex offender working in a hospital, they passed this law.

Really? It took actually finding one to make it illegal? Seems a bit late for that. :confused:

I remember having to have special photos taken, and background checks before being able to take boards...(this was also back when boards were done in huge conference rooms-- there were 1500 people in my testing room- one poor girl in a hospital bed at the front- couldn't wait to take the tests, only offered every 6 months). It took 2 days, in 4 sections....no computers.

IMHO, some felonies (non-violent and non-repeat), committed by someone either in stupidity of youth (but still old enough to count as an adult), or some other situation where the person actually learns their lesson, and doesn't keep offending should be able to learn and move on. But, some things just aren't worth the risk to have involved in caring for people.

In Illinois, things seem to be weird anyway- standing joke is that the governors have a retirement plan that includes making license plates- so many of them have ended up in fed prison. :uhoh3:

xtxrn, ASN, RN · Jul 23, 2011

IMHO, those pinching patients for soiling themselves should be charged with assault, not dismissed because of it happening 'all the time'.... I've worked in a LOT of LTCs and with incapacitated patients in hospitals. If I ever saw a coworker pinch someone, I'd be first in line to report them immediately to the supervisor. OMG.

Lesson- don't ever go to a healthcare facility without someone with you to keep you safe from the help....????? Is that the message? I hope not.....

Very disturbing.

Yet I do agree with the poster about blanket statements about felonies and misdemeanors- IMHO anybody who does something abusive to the physical person of anybody, they need to (at minimum) be investigated (looking back at legal history), and at the most, banned from healthcare (any job- the housekeepers and cooks also have contact with the patients).

Theft is another deal breaker to me- unless some obscure thing that happened as a kid, and hasn't been a pattern.

True- it can't just be a general statement about class of crime- need to look at specific charges.... IMHO. :)

lckrn2pa · Jul 23, 2011

back in 1990 I worked at a nursing home as a CNA when I was in LPN school and I noticed when I left at 11pm always the same group of people out front. One night I was a little later than usually and I saw why, they were all on work release from the County Jail and they had to wait for the jail bus to pick them up. 90% of them worked as CNA's.

nohika · Jul 23, 2011

IMHO, those pinching patients for soiling themselves should be charged with assault, not dismissed because of it happening 'all the time'....

I don't think she was saying it should be dismissed - just that it happens all the time and it is never reported, if only because the person being pinched doesn't say anything or it's not witnessed (and neither party says anything) or whatever. She's not saying it's okay, just that it happens and it's unfortunate that sometimes people don't speak up for whatever reason.

xtxrn, ASN, RN · Jul 23, 2011

I hear what you're saying- my thing was that if it's known about, it needs to be reported, no matter by who... can go to the sup or DON and just say (or leave a note, even, if afraid of retaliation) that this is being discussed as a common occurrence.... and keep a copy or notes, if it's ever investigated by the state- CYA stuff....and protecting those vulnerable patients :)

eagle78 · Jul 23, 2011

op, you hear the word "felony", and automatically classify anyone who has one as being too dangerous to work around vulnerable populations, however, if there ever was a comprehensive study of all known abusers in the health care system, you'd be surprised to find that most of if not all of them had no prior convictions/record before licensure. furthermore, their crimes are committed after licensure and never picked up because until recently, background checks weren't required for renewal.
"also, why is someone who is convicted, passing a background check at a health care facility?"
because convicts, either misdemeanor or felony, have a right and opportunity to show that they have learned from their pasts and are rehabilitated, ready and willing to take on the role of upstanding members of their communities. in order to reasonably justify your train of thought concerning following rules and consequences, the whole world would have to be raised the exact same way with the exact same opportunities and nuclear units. then you'd be better able to say that so and so should not be in health care because they are convicted of whatever. since in this world there are varying degrees of moral input, upbringing, opportunities and beliefs, you cannot in good conscious be as general as you are being in your judgment.
as emergencynrse has pointed out, what constitutes a felony vary from state to state. in my state, simple assault and battery is a misdemeanor. should someone convicted of this be allowed to work in health care? it is very upsetting to continue to hear about these stories of elder and child abuse in health care, but if you ban everyone who has a criminal history from entering into the field guess what?......it would still happen. for everyone that is reported, there are twenty that are not. something as simple as pinching a patient for soiling himself after you just changed him is abuse, yet it goes on all the time. the people doing the pinching have no criminal histories.......
i do find this whole situation sad, that people can be denied careers based on transgressions over 10-15 years old because of the stigma of "felony, conviction, arrest, dui, etc...." there are and should continue to be time bars on felony convictions. there are and should continue to be case by case examinations of convictions. there are and should continue to be psychological consults in some of these case by case convictions. there are and should continue to be mandatory drug evaluations in some of these case by case convictions. i say allow someone to prove that they are not the same person they once were, nor do the same things they once did and should that proof be forthcoming, praise god that he is still in control and let them get on with their lives.

great post, all i can say is i totally agree with you...:)

PhoenixTech, LPN · Jul 24, 2011

I don't think she was saying it should be dismissed - just that it happens all the time and it is never reported, if only because the person being pinched doesn't say anything or it's not witnessed (and neither party says anything) or whatever. She's not saying it's okay, just that it happens and it's unfortunate that sometimes people don't speak up for whatever reason.

Thank you

What I'm saying is that because someone has a felony conviction, it doesn't mean that they're morally less qualified to care for vulnerable populations. It doesn't mean that they will be abusive to patients. Felony is a stigma that is unfortunately toted to the public, causing the sort of inflammatory and biased thinking that is prevalent among the masses. What I'm saying is some of the ones with the squeaky clean, no offense backgrounds are the ones that will treat your loved one with disdain, impatience and violence. By all means they are in the minority but they are there nevertheless.

Some people for whatever reason have gotten in trouble with the law. The reasons and circumstances of the offense(s) are myriad, but if they can get help, find salvation, or whatever they do to get their life back on track and have been out of trouble for some years, how can we go looking in their closets and ban them because of their past. I have a theory that most of the time, the person with the history who hasn't changed and is still offending will not pursue such a noble profession as Nursing. Time bars help to flush those people out, they'll be less likely to come back after the ban is lifted if they've learned nothing from their past to begin with. They'll move on to the next best thing.

I'm gonna stop now because I can feel myself starting to ramble but my point is a convicted person is not the poster boy/girl for abuse. They're people with no criminal past who are less morally sound than the ones who've been able to overcome their past.

DoGoodThenGo · Jul 24, 2011

In all states I believe, you can sit to take boards if you have a background, but the complication comes when you are seeking employment, as it depends on the individual facility to hire you. Its pretty simple to get licensened but gaining employment is usually the challenge.

*Wherein lies the rub*

Thank you for stating this as it needed to be aired.

Am not picking on anyone in particular but yes being allowed to sit for the NCLEX and obtaining a license despite convictions truly is the easy part. Next you've got to find a hospital/facility willing to hire you and that isn't always very easy.

This applies to most every type of employment, and with plenty of well qualified applicants with squeaky clean records applying for jobs the chances of those with a "past" range from slim to nil.

It may be sad, it may be wrong, but that simply the way things are. Unless government is willing to make some sort of iron clad promise and or otherwise exempt a facility from liablilty should something happen there will be road blocks.

PhoenixTech, LPN · Jul 24, 2011

Indeed government has taken steps to help to ensure equality in the hiring process. As far back as 1974 there has been the Rehabilitation Act. That act has been expounded on recently and there are tax break incentives for employers' willing to hire a convict. Yes, there are certificates of good conduct, certificates of rehabilitation and Liability Insurance for convicts. There are mandates that state that otherwise qualified individuals shall not be denied employment based on their criminal backgrounds alone. The same applies to licensure with the exception of 1 or 2 career fields and let me break it to you, Nursing is not one of them. In some states getting a pardon can supersede a decision by the board to deny a license or offer employment. These things vary from state to state but they are in place because the Rehab act is a Federal mandate, so each state has to have a variation on it.

When I see people proclaiming that finding a job is the problem, I tend to think that they should develop their spirituality. Sometimes what we believe we can do, is what we base what we think God can do off of. God is not limited to a square box, he is almighty and able to do what we can't.

xtxrn, ASN, RN · Jul 24, 2011

The guy who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard had commendations from the corrections department for being 'rehabilitated' and his wonderful cooperation on parole..... granted he is an extreme example....

So many variables to ensure safety of the public, but also be sensible about who is branded for life.

I know he wasn't in nursing- but some people can 'look' good on the surface, and be lying in wait for the opportunity to reoffend.

shannons1 · Jul 24, 2011

I only wanted to comment on the metro video. Makes me very sad to see this. I worked at metrohealth main hospital for 10 years(the nursing home is on campus but not part of the main hospital). I loved it and found the staff to be incredibly skilled and professional. My family still sees MH providers for all their care. Just so disappointed to see this...