BSN vs. ADN

leia · Jun 29, 2000

I see you must have a lot of problems in the states,in germany it is a little different.I went to school for three years (just like every other nurse)and after I passed the test I am a RN and I am able to work anywhere in Germany if I want I can get higher education like being an ICU Nurse that is an extra 2 years of school (have to do that next to the job),but the regular nurses get paid all the same and you get pay raises with the years you have,so I get paid more (almost 15 years in nursing) than a nurse fresh out of training.I don't have a problem with nurses with more responsibilities get paid more than me-what I have a problem with is nurses who having less work to do than me getting paid the same.I work on a Stroke Unit/Neuro.ICU and we have patients who needs a lot of help in everything(everybody who lifted a 200pd person before,know what I mean)and the nurses on station with less sick pt.get the same money.So I be thinking I should get paid for the work I do not just for my degree.A degree don't mean anythink if you do not work in a field where you use the knowledge in.

leia

ratchit · Jul 2, 2000

Bit my tongue as long as I could... I'm a proud ADN who as a senior research paper (yes, we wrote 'em too!) compared my program to a world known and much respected program. We used the same textbooks, covering at least as many chapters (according to syllabus), had the same number of science and nursing class hours and MORE clinical hours than the BSN program. I worked my way through school and, even though I had my choice of a couple programs, chose the ADN so I would get out of school earlier. (All the better to appease the nasty student loan man. ) The classes I didn't take have NOTHING to do with my job as a staff nurse- my patients need my clinical judgement, compassion, and skill. Haven't had a single one yet ask me to debate Asian politics of the 1700's or economic influences on the Civil War... There is data (I wish I could quote the source- will find it...) showing ADN's and BSN's work at the same level within months of graduation. Another side: there are LPN's I would trust my grandmother with and MSN's I wouldn't trust alone with a dead rodent. The letters after your name mean so much less than your performance.

There is nothing wrong with a higher education- I full well plan on going back to school. But I have no desire to be management or an NP- so I see no point in shelling out $30,000 to change my "A" to a "B". My colleagues respect me, my supervisors trust me, and my patients are comfortable knowing they have a damn good nurse who is on their side. If you want a BSN then God bless you- but please respect those of us who know just as much about being a staff nurse and were smart enough to save some money.

Ratchit

askater · Jul 2, 2000

Nobody answered my question above. Oh well that's okay....it's just a thought.

Mijourney · Jul 4, 2000

Originally posted by askater:
Nobody answered my question above. Oh well that's okay....it's just a thought.

---------------------------------------------

Hi askater,

I'm not sure of which post you're referring to. If it's the one about the A.D.N. expansion potential then I will respond that it would be difficult to expand an already intense two year program. But, I am expressing my opinion as a diploma nurse who also has a BSN. I know of schools that have both an ADN and BSN program whereby the person who obtains their associate's degree can continue their nursing education and financial support of that particular nursing school by enrolling in the school's BSN program. I personally feel that BSN programs should incorporate 3 years of clinical. In today's progressive health and medical care environment, I don't think that one can get too much exposure to patient care. Anyway, I think the issue of additional pay for education is falling on deaf ears in the upper echelons of decision-making. There is a nursing shortage here or on the horizon. Some experts predict 20 years of a severe nursing shortage. I have the upmost respect for any nurse who can competently and sanely practice nursing at any bedside.

emmidee · Jul 5, 2000

Originally posted by Angel Nurse:
I think nurses who have the BS as opposed to just an AS should get payed more. Even If you have both nurses doing the same job, the BS nurse should be payed more. The BS nurse took the time and payed the money to receive that BS degree. A BS nurse has gained more knowledge through that education and he/she should be recognized for that.

Excuse me? Did you say gain more knowledge? As a new grad RN, 6 months into the game, we have had two new grad BSNs to come into our ER that I have constantly had to coach on procedures, disease processes, etc. The only difference between the degrees is that BSNs get management lectures. And, I might add, letters are no guage of knowledge. I know some BSNs who have no common sense, and whether people know it or not, that stuff plays a big part in this field.

emmidee · Jul 5, 2000

Originally posted by goldilocksrn:
I didn't go into a BSN program because I wanted more money. I did it to expand my mind. I think the more open your mind, the better person you are. I think paying people with more formal education more is a way of saying that their efforts to learn are recognized. It is sad that fellows nurses aren't willing to recognize a fellow RN's hard work. The public is going to continue to view us as task doers as long as we continue to view ourselves as task doers. Here we are arguing over who does what tasks and its not fair that a BSN makes more; if it makes you that upset, go get your BSN too. It will motivate others to pursue further learning.

And that, in itself, is a close-minded statement. An open-minded person would have said that there are several way to open your mind..since when was two years of school a prerequisite to openmindedness? I know high school graduates who are probably more educated that some college grads. Half of all of us can't even spell looking at some of these posts. And if it took COLLEGE to help you expand your mind, then that, my friend, is sad. No harm intended, but people get so caught up in titles that you all forget where you came from in the first place. I know LPNs who run rings around some of our CCRNs. And this is no lie. So get over the obsession with "bettering yourselves" and just be a NURSE. It doesn't take a Bachelor's degree to be caring. Compassion and caring can't be taught by any professor.

emmidee · Jul 5, 2000

Originally posted by ratchit:
Bit my tongue as long as I could... I'm a proud ADN who as a senior research paper (yes, we wrote 'em too!) compared my program to a world known and much respected program. We used the same textbooks, covering at least as many chapters (according to syllabus), had the same number of science and nursing class hours and MORE clinical hours than the BSN program. I worked my way through school and, even though I had my choice of a couple programs, chose the ADN so I would get out of school earlier. (All the better to appease the nasty student loan man. ) The classes I didn't take have NOTHING to do with my job as a staff nurse- my patients need my clinical judgement, compassion, and skill. Haven't had a single one yet ask me to debate Asian politics of the 1700's or economic influences on the Civil War... There is data (I wish I could quote the source- will find it...) showing ADN's and BSN's work at the same level within months of graduation. Another side: there are LPN's I would trust my grandmother with and MSN's I wouldn't trust alone with a dead rodent. The letters after your name mean so much less than your performance.

There is nothing wrong with a higher education- I full well plan on going back to school. But I have no desire to be management or an NP- so I see no point in shelling out $30,000 to change my "A" to a "B". My colleagues respect me, my supervisors trust me, and my patients are comfortable knowing they have a damn good nurse who is on their side. If you want a BSN then God bless you- but please respect those of us who know just as much about being a staff nurse and were smart enough to save some money.

Ratchit

AMEN TO THAT.

askater · Jul 5, 2000

emmidee Yes!! Common sense is important. I know ADN's without common sense and BSN's. It's a very small amount of nurses. But there's some out there. Hey come to think of it, I know one or two Dr.'s without the best common sense.

[This message has been edited by askater (edited July 05, 2000).]

ratchit · Jul 5, 2000

Well, after reading my own prior post I will admit to not answering the question of should a BSN get paid more than an ADN. (50 lashes with a wet noodle- I know better than to type before the coffee hits the bloodstream...) A BSN gives no additional preparedness for a staff RN position than an ADN, in mine and many people's opinions. Perhaps some advantage for a management position, but I haven't met a new grad yet who went right into management. (Although some managers seem to have less comprehension of patient care needs than freshman students.. ) So while I can understand a BSN or higher requirement for a management position, if the BSN and I are doing the same job, we should be paid the same. I absolutely endorse rewarding experience, hard to find off-shift staff, and unit leadership (CNS, Charge, etc.) but the same job merits the same pay.

Angela Barnes · Jul 11, 2000

Hi!

Boy is this a hot topic with some of us! I am a new grad and newly liscensed, fresh out of a BSN program. I decided to get my BSN, mainly because by the time I made a definate decision to go into nursing, I already had one associate's degree. I decided that if I was going for two more years, I might as well go for the BSN. At the hospital where I work, the BSN nurses make $.50 more an hour than the other RN's. We also received an extra $1000 on our sign-on bonus. The extra $.50 is not a lot, but I feel that it at least recognizes the extra time that I spent in school. I realize that we all do the same job, and that BSN's have only a few more nursing classes than ADN's. I also am smart enough to know that I'm going to listen to ANY nurse who can give me guidance when I start working on the floor next week, whether it be from a nurse from a diploma program, a LPN, ADN, or BSN. Experience counts more in this field than any other factor, in my opinion, and I'm more than willing to listen to those who have been around longer than me. Those extra literature or science courses that I took may not directly affect my patient care, just as the lack of them in an ADN program may not affect patient care, however, I feel that nurses with a BSN do deserve something for furthering their education. My husband is a police officer, and once he receive his bachelor's degree next semester, he will be making a higher wage then those without the degree. And his degree will be in English, which is basically unrelated to his career. How then, can it be said that those with a more advanced degree in the actual field in which they are working should not be compensated? I agree with one of the above posters, who stated that there should be one pathway to becoming an RN. This topic would no longer be an issue, or a cause of conflict. I would have still taken my job if I hadn't been offered the BSN incentive, but it's nice to know that my employer does recognize the extra effort I put forth and the additional education that I have attained.

LRM · Jul 11, 2000

Good luck for your new job angela, i finish my degree this year & am looking forward to getting out there as an RN also. Here in oz is where we have only one pathway for RN, we used to have hospital trained rns but that is fazed out, all must do degree with uni for BN. However, hospital trained are still respected within workforce (experience does count) & pay scales are same (see post june 21st)

Sooner · Jul 12, 2000

Sorry this will be a long one! The following is an excerpt from an article in the June 14 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association regarding the reforms necessary to head off cycles of nursing shortages:

"In regional focus groups conducted by the American Assoc. of Colleges of Nursing on factors associated with declining enrollments in BSN programs, educators noted consistently that potential BSN students were 'discouraged from pursuing a nursing career by the confusing array of entry level options available in the profession' and noted that such confusion has lead to many secondary school guidance counselors and students 'to not view nursing as an intellectual endeaver'. Moreover, at the same time that BSN enrollments are declining, increasing evidence shows an association between between health care quality and the education level of the nursing staff, the number of RNs in the clinical setting and the perceived value placed on nursing staff by the practice setting.

These findings have been researched and documented in "magnet" hospitals that have been identified as good places to practice nursing and are recognized for their ability to attract and retain RNs in times of shortage. Such facilities not only give nurses greater staus and more autonomy over their own practice and experience lower nurse burnout rates, but have also been found to have significantly lower mortality and higher satisfaction in pts. that do non-magnet hospitals. Magnet hospitals also have a higher proportion of nursing staff prepared at the baccalaureate level (average 59% compared to 34% for all hospitals).

Indeed, in a 1999 study of chief nurse officers at major health systems, respondents reported their preference for an average of 70% of staff nurses to be prepared with bachelor's degrees, citing better critical thinking, leadership, prevention and patient education skills among BSN graduates compared to nurse with associate-degree or diploma education.

...'practice environments should be restructured to emply nursing staff according to their differing educational and patient care capabilitites. In particular, practice settings should allow for the full utilization of the professional-level competencies of BSN graduates'."