BSN minimum requirement - page 7
It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year... Read More
Mar 9, '01Originally posted by egmillard:
It appears that you think you are a professional, just because you have a degree. I have met many nurses with diplomas and 2 year degree, who are far better than those with 4 year degrees. I have met incredibly bad nurses with masters degrees. Your education does not define what kind of nurse you are, or how good you are at your job, it simply allows you to gain quicker promotions.
[This message has been edited by egmillard (edited March 09, 2001).]
Mar 9, '01To be frank many of the comments sadden me... First of all familymanRNBSN, it's Tim-GNP- it's an RN with a BSN, an MSN, and an additional certificate beyond that. Hooked on phonics worked for me.
Second of all, to all the nurses who refer to yourselves as 'butt wipers' I think you are classless & white trash. In my line of work, I care for MANY people who are incontinent, and require gentle and prompt cleaning of their excrement. It is something to be done with humility and in a matter-of-factish way. I have attended to many individuals who cried because somebody HAD to provide thistype of care for them. It is done in silence and drawing attention away from the task-- NOT with the bells and whistles of referring to yourself as a 'butt wiper' that's just tasteless!!!
And, sheripa... I loved reading your family's resume... big s***! Try living through your own accomplishments instead of vicariously living through others, and as for your uncle- i'm not surprised, many Doctors are morons.
Mar 9, '01I just finished reading this whole thing and of course I can't resist making a comment. Someone mentioned that critical thinking and community nursing are what she learned in her BSN program. Classes in community nursing and critical thinking were included in my ADN. Other than courses in administration, we received essentially the same education as SOME of the BSN programs. My point being that, just as our friends the doctors, the educations we receive have something to do with the schools we attend. We can't all go to Harvard. Some of us are limited by the area in which we live. I am getting my BA in an entirely different area from nursing. I am a bedside nurse. I have no desire to go into administration or research. I am glad there are those who want to do those things. I admire and appreciate them but do not envy them. We all have unique gifts and skills. Nursing needs and should nurture this diversity.
Mar 9, '01I am SO glad I've decided to go into nursing after earning my BS in biology education. Seems that nursing has similar problems as education does!
Seriously, I really am glad that I've chosen to go into nursing because I have a "change the world" mentality. I tend to think positive and offer suggestions/possible solutions whenever I gripe.
With that said, how do you feel about my ideas below? (Please don't be too harsh!)
First, focus your energy on becoming committed to a SOLUTION to the problems of nursing, then maybe there wouldn't be so many problems. Offer suggestions with your comments... you may be surprised that some of them will be taken! And, don't forget to listen! Some of us are so busy making our point and getting the last word in that we don't hear anything but our own voices.
Second, stop the turf wars! Internal fighting only serves to weaken the nursing profession. Find ground that everyone agrees on and build on that foundation. There IS mutual ground here!
Third, determine the minimum requirements for nursing education. Personally, I believe the BSN should be the minimum requirement IF nurses are to be considered professionals by the outside world. I am NOT saying that ADNs are less prepared, uneducated, etc.; however, 2 year degrees are simply not viewed by the public as professional degrees. I DO believe that there should be a timeframe that the BSN can be obtained. For example, ADN programs would still be in place (great for those on a tight budget, with families, etc.); however, they would be required to continue their education and obtain their BSN within X years (say 10 years?).
Finally, as with any profession, we should all strive to commit to our profession through continued training, education, etc., unite together as a profession and seek ways to improve quality on a daily basis.
[This message has been edited by Born 2 B In OB (edited March 09, 2001).]
Mar 9, '01Unfortunately, when the discussion comes around as to minimal education for entry into practice, lines get drawn. Despite the 'eat s*** and die' mentality of many of the posters, it still comes down to a question of what defines a 'profession'; that is, a UNIFORM educational experience.
This does NOT mean that an ADN or is better or worse than a BSN, it does not mean that nurses with BSN's are idiots either [after being a practicing LPN for years, I was an excellent RN when I finished my BSN program].
BUT, people hear "BSN" and immediately take it as an attack against their educational preparation. I guess when I was an LPN, hearing that RN's were the only 'real nurses' got to me the same way. I can relate.
There is a college in Elkins, West Virginia, called "Davis & Elkins" who has one of the best ideas I have ever heard of. Their students get the ADN [I think], and take their state boards... they stay on one more year [I think] and finish their BSN [a.k.a., get the non-sense management and research stuff]. This might be a good model for BSN programs. I don't know. Just a thought.
Mar 10, '01Originally posted by Brownms46:
Bickering...B****ing?? I think not! Even though I totally disagreed with the original poster, I have enjoyed reading the posts that sprang from it. The following is a quote from one I truly enjoyed..."I do believe that BSN should be the level of entry for those reasons but mostly because it allows an individual nurse to easily walk forward from the bedside into other roles when (or if) she tires of the role that the ADN/diploma program so aptly prepares their students for"
This post validated my original post! "Allows the individual nurse to easily walk FORWARD FROM THE BEDSIDE into OTHER ROLES when(or if)she TIRES of the role that the ADN/diploma program so aptly prepares their students for" Now lets see if my uneducated tired old brain can grasp this concept. Now tell me if I get it wrong now. So the ADN/diploma programs aptly prepare their students for...umm now let me see here...nursing?? Hold on..I'll get it ...if those programs prepare them to nurse at the bedside...umm where does the BSN/MSN programs prepare you to work?? Hmmm..must NOT be at the bedside..eh? Now..let me go even further here...oooh this means really stretching my brain matter ...hold on...neurons are firing...HEY..I get it. Get you ADN....go on to get your BSN/MSN...so you DON'T have to work at the bedside anymore...is that it??? OOOhhh ok...so now...if having your BSN should be the entry level to nursing...and all the BSN as getting away from the bedside...and there are no other levels of nursing...ummm...now let me see here.....WHO IS AT THE BEDSIDE??
OOh don't tell me...IT's THE NEW GRADS!!! Now won't that increase superlative patient care. Yeah ...right!
Mar 10, '01With regards to the "Davis & Elkins" college, Weber State University in Ogden, Utah is very similar, i.e., they do not offer a straight 4-year BSN. Instead, applicants must finish a certain amount of pre-req's; show proof of completion of a Certified Nursing Assistant course and various community service; high SAT or ACT scores; application to ADN program during Winter semester - start the following Fall; two years later receive AS Degree (ADN); pass boards. A new application is generated for BSN admission with proof of Utah licensure. Then, and only then, can one start WSU's BSN program. Other BSN program requirements (besides licensure as a Registered Nurse) are high GPA, professional membership, letters of recommendation, etc.
This very subject (BSN entry level) was discussed at length throughout my ADN program. The main complaint from most students: Why pay more tuition/sacrifice more time to obtain a BSN when [Utah] employers do not monetarily compensate for this additional degree? This was how the majority felt, evidenced by only a handful of my fellow classmates going on to WSU's BSN program.
Maybe this is a subject for another post, but I am curious if other regions/states offer additional compensation for an RN with a BSN.
I'd appreciate your input!
Mar 10, '01Here in MN (the MNA contract) gives us about .80 more an hour! Hopefully will change w/ new contract in May.
Mar 10, '01I have been silent on this issue up until now primarily because i wanted to see when the vitriolics would subside and some real substance might emerge.....At this juncture in our professional development, there really is no difference in how the 3 levels of RNs enact their roles. We all take the same boards, practice the same way and become whatever kind of nurse we choose. The roles of nurses have been compressed to a level of mediocrity that is astounding. We are the backbone of the healthcare infrastructure, yet be behave as its slaves. We are slaves to tasks..who can do the best and most complicated tasks with the greatest efficiency and accuracy. That is not education really...that is training. Our collective role must become the central focus of the healthcare debate and we, the ones at the bedside (yes, I am still a clinician) must enact that focus. Clearly, the role of the RN is in question and left to those outside of bedside nursing, that role will never change. Collective education is one part of the process. The outcome of education, and especially advanced education, is not to get a better job. Any one of us with creativity and perserverance can excel with whatever we have at our disposal. The outcome of education is expanding mindfulness, not just knowledge. Education offers us (or surely should) the space to tap into our inner sources of power to create whatever job, work, future we choose. Use education as the springboard to learn about things, yes, but more importantly, to learn about yourself. Use education in invest in your LIFE, not your job. There are many of us in dead end jobs...and very few of us who are creating the nursing futures we truly deserve. The LIFE we choose certainly transcends the tasks we do as nurses...
best regards to all
Mar 11, '01Originally posted by Charles S. Smith, RN, MS:
...Collective education is one part of the process. The outcome of education, and especially advanced education, is not to get a better job. Any one of us with creativity and perserverance can excel with whatever we have at our disposal. The outcome of education is expanding mindfulness, not just knowledge. Education offers us (or surely should) the space to tap into our inner sources of power to create whatever job, work, future we choose. Use education as the springboard to learn about things, yes, but more importantly, to learn about yourself. Use education in invest in your LIFE, not your job. There are many of us in dead end jobs...and very few of us who are creating the nursing futures we truly deserve. The LIFE we choose certainly transcends the tasks we do as nurses...
best regards to all
I am saddened that my one previous post in this thread has caused some folks some consternation and hurt feelings. I am the person that said that the BSN allows you to walk forward from the bedside when and if you choose to do so. Perhaps "away" would have been a better word than forward. Here is what I mean by that. MANY of my BSN completion colleagues were there to complete a BSN SO THAT they could go on to NP school, get a management or nurse educator job in their community hospital, teach in their beloved local nursing ed program. But a necessary stop on the way was their BSN completion. BSN grads don't have to buff up their credential to go on to the next step. They are there. It is simply more efficient. Now I also know many BSN's who are bedside nurses; that's where they are and where they want to be. They are good at it. My best, all time, most fantastic bedside nurse that I met in my career was a BSN, MSN who wanted nothing more than to be a bedside nurse and we would all hope to have her as our nurse if we were sick. Baccalaureate programs understand that if they hope to serve their communities they MUST turn out bedside nurses but they seek to turn out nurses with the wider framework, the awareness that is afforded by baccalaureate education that includes liberal arts foundation and research and theory basics in nursing. You know I am constantly aware that one of my _options_ with my education is to return to the bedside. Advanced education does not preclude bedside nursing and in fact, Chas, I hope your would agree that it could well enrich it. Candidly let me tell you that the siren call of the bedside is everpresent in my life, too. In summary, the BSN gives you options and one of them will always be the bedside.
But, Chas, you also echoed one of my points in my post. I said that it was sometimes hard to quantify what the BSN brings to your practice and that until we could quantify it in a way that would make people want it sufficient to be the entry of level into practice that I forecast we would continue to muddle around. Anyhow, your quote above synopsizes what you think advanced education brings. I agree, and beautifully stated. BB posters, your thoughts? Additionally, nurses, please just re-read the quote and sit with it a few moments. Don't rush to defend what your truly excellent ADN or diploma programs did. Trust me. We start with this assumption: ADN and diploma programs have the capacity to educate excellent bedside nurses and they do. But they have you for two or three short precious years. Trust also that with two more years, BSN programs have something to offer their students that *may not* be as visible or quantifiable as technical skills. Especially those of us that are BSN completion students may be able to identify what the BSN added to our practice. Was it alike or different from Chas writes above? One poster earlier said that it was computer skills. Is that what you're willing to say you got from your BSN? BSN grads, what do you see as the differences in your function? Please no generalizations or slams. If we are going to say that this degree has an appreciable difference, we have to be able to say what it was. Since I am a BSN completion and serve as my own control ;-), I can say that the difference include thinking and perspective (Chas's mindfulness), use of frameworks to guide me through new and atypical situations and a much greater appreciation of how illness affects families and systems (some of this latter factor might have been developmental) to name a few. I also got better at knowledge acquisition.
Mar 11, '01Molly..thanx for your reply. My view of education in general and nursing education in particular has evolved over time to a fundamental understanding (for me) that life-long learning avails one of the opportunity to exercise choices. Education unlocks perspective, allows us to creatively engage in generative activites for our own individual futures. Formal education, taken with the seriousness it deserves, prepares the individual with unique options. Taken frivolously or used for a specific outcome may impose constraints that block the learning of new perspectives, that in turn limit our choice options in life. On the pragmatic side, we all entered nursing school to become nurses. In nursing school we learned specific tasks that allow us to wear the mantle of "the nurse" and were socialized to a prescribed nursing role. Up to this point, this type of education has served us. My view is, however, that the ROLE of the professional nurse must now be revisited and recreated. There will always be a need for patient care tasks and those can be taught and taught well (our history of task education is rich). But, given the emergence of serious crises in healthcare financing, our overall economy, the latest statistics on the nursing shortage, the looming prospect that there will not be enough nurses to take care of you and me when we need care, and the restlessness of the current RN force, all beg the question "are we missing something here?". My view is that we are indeed missing something. We now have the challenge to create what the professional nursing ROLE must look like for the future. The timing has never been better and the impetus for change has never been as compelling. I appreciate your continued dialogue..
Mar 11, '01Originally posted by Lburns:
It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.
Mar 11, '01CarolK---Just as YOU might resent blanket statements about 2 year RNs being 'uneducated,' I resent your IGNORANT blanket statements about BSNs:
BSN's don't know what a real nurse does nor do they want to know. Willing to dish out orders but not know how to do the task yourselves.
GET A GRIP. As a BSN prepared nurse, I am DAMN GOOD at my job, and am very much a 'REAL NURSE.' Jesus. Nice fanning the flames of class warfare....I guess you didn't have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say.