Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally?

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

You also see that the moon gets up in the sky every time after the sun goes down, as countless generation of humans did for the last 100000 years. It still doesn't mean that the moon comes up BECAUSE the sun goes down.
That's absolutely your right to refuse any medical action, medication or procedure, or think that by questioning work of others you extoll your own intellectual value, so to say. But, if you choose to live in developed First World society (and, yes, it is YOUR CHOICE), it is not your right to do anything that can negatively affect others. Likewise, you can drink yourself into oblivion in your own house, but you cannot drive while drunk - not because it is dangerous for you, but because you can kill someone else. Refusing to vaccinate, leaving alone personal benefits, which can be significant but not decisive for some people concerned with "substances" being injected into them, endangers others - primarily, very young, very sick and very old. If such a person - a preemie baby or someone who took a gift of life from another person who died but left pieces of his or her life to prolong others' lives, - catches a prevenatble disease from a person who "chooses not to vaccinate", in my book it is equals knowingly and willingly performing actions which with high probability can cause great bodily harm or death. Just like driving drunk, throwing objects from a bridge to a highway or keeping a loaded gun in a place where it can be found by a child.
I really do not understand why people inflict such emotional suffering upon themselves if they just do not satisfied with the fact that living in the First World society implies having significant amount of social responsibilities toward others. There are helluva lot of countries where nobody cares about you being vaccinated or not, and which ignore modern preventive medicine altogether. Many of them have pleasant climate, lower taxes, easy immigration laws and much less pressure to conform to certain social norms - aka "more freedom", if one chooses to name it like that.
BTW, nasal smear test for flu costs about $50 usually covered by insurance, doesn't require blood draw and can be done in pretty much any Urgent Care. Next time, when your family "gets flu" at least 3 weeks after shot, do it to make sure that it was flu - it which case, there's Tamiflu option. 3 weeks is the time for IgG synthesis to get to the max.

I've always wanted to retire to a warmer climate.

Sadly, these countries likely have other problems. And there is nothing in the world so grand as being a US citizen. God (yes GOD) bless America.

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

I doubt most patients know there are GUIDElines about health care workers getting flu shots.
I'll bet most doctors do not get them. No, I have no figures and you likely don't either. Just thinking out loud.

I'll bet you're wrong. In 2012 physicians through one survey had over 85% annual influenza vaccine rates. Physicians were actually one of the highest HCPs by percentage to get the flu vaccine.

Health Care Personnel Flu Vaccination, Internet Panel Survey, United States, November 2

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

What random straw man arguments about my religious views did I throw out?
I do not necessarily believe it or not believe it. I am not sure. I am on the fence. Do you understand? I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure.
Answer the question you ignored before. Don't pretend you don't see it now. Answer it. What random straw man argument about my religious views did I throw out?

Did I post something about religion, because I certainly don't remember it?.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

Of course I'm allowed to say the word! I say it a lot, to be honest, and have lessons built around it. Your second question makes an assumption about comprehensive sex education when it comes to abstinence. Comprehensive sex education includes abstinence teaching. Abstinence is the healthiest choice a middle or high school student can make (the grade levels I teach). I've mentioned this in another thread, but comprehensive sex education teaching and abstinence teaching do want the same thing ultimately: children to be healthy and they both teach that abstinence is the healthiest option for them.
Since you asked, I define abstinence is my class as voluntarily choosing not to engage in any sexual behavior (such as lady partsl, anal, and oral intercourse) that could result in a pregnancy or STI. But you mention all sexual contact - some folks believe kissing is sexual contact. I also acknowledge this as again, abstinence will mean different things to different people.
It is not my place to tell someone when they should or should not have sex and what is right or wrong. I do, however, present students with questions they can ask themselves when they are thinking about having sex to see if they feel fully ready for any consequences (negative or positive) that can occur after having sex.
I use terms "healthy" and "unhealthy" when I teach sex education. Right and wrong are value words and my personal values have no place in a sex education classroom.
But I'm getting off-topic on vaccines. I do mention the HPV vaccine when teaching about STIs because it relevant. But again, I do not voice my opinion for or against it, just the facts about it. But a majority of the students I teach have voiced that they have already started or finished getting the HPV vaccine.

Call me old fashioned. But I'm not sure kids need to know how to spell cunnilingus or how to put a condom on a fake member.

Duggars, right on. (not the lack of contraception; to each his own, but that's not what I'm applauding about them)

Kissing, being alone on dates, even holding hands - it all just leads to temptation that kids don't need.

I wonder if parents are aware that Sex Ed is no longer about just anatomy, a woman's menstrual cycle, and wet dreams.

I do think parents need to be telling kids about values and morality in relation to sexuality/sex.

allnurses Guide · Oct 29, 2017

Call me old fashioned. But I'm not sure kids need to know how to spell cunnilingus or how to put a condom on a fake member.
Duggars, right on. (not the lack of contraception; to each his own, but that's not what I'm applauding about them)
Kissing, being alone on dates, even holding hands - it all just leads to temptation that kids don't need.
I wonder if parents are aware that Sex Ed is no longer about just anatomy, a woman's menstrual cycle, and wet dreams.
I do think parents need to be telling kids about values and morality in relation to sexuality/sex.

Sex education should reflect the realities of our society not what we would wish them to be, and as I have already posted links to abstinence only education has shown to increase teenage pregnancy and STI rates.

Adolescent Sexual and Reproductive Health in the United States | Guttmacher Institute

KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

I would agree that we could say that it can be reasonably presumed that mandating HCW flu vaccination results in better patient outcomes, but "reasonably presume" and "definitively know" are two very different things, and conflating the two only adds fuel to the vaccine conspiracist fire.
I would suggest actually reading the full abstract, since it didn't find that there are currently no RCTs on the subject, it's analysis included 4 cluster-RCTs and a cohort study, these failed to show any improvement in outcomes with the intervention of mandated vaccination. And there is no prohibition or other inability to perform RCTs when it's presumed an intervention will produce better outcomes, that's actually the basis of most RCTs. The approval of an RCT becomes less likely when a proposed intervention is already well established to be harmful, but RCTs where the current balance of outcomes has not shown clear risk are not challenging to getting a study approved, particularly when both groups currently exist in practice (there are currently facilities that do not mandate vaccinations and there are those that do).
Actually the control group would be patients who were cared for by HCWs that were not mandated to be vaccinated, not HCWs that were required to be unvaccinated. Such RCWs already exist and are well within allowable RCT design.

The latter would, within limitations, answer the question "if mandating vaccine for HCWs would do any difference". If we want to answer the question "if vaccination of HCWs would do any difference", then we will have to form "clear control" of non-vaccinated HCW caring for "averagely" vaccinated population (with the same type of vaccine and known level of immune responce as evidenced by by titers) patients and avoiding "outside exposure bias" (that is, vaccination status of all visitors should be known, etc.). Counting that immune responce for flu vaccine is relatively low and in any given year chance of "antigen match" are also relatively low, being in average 60 +/- 10%, such study should be repeated for several years to gain enough power. That would probably be financial and logistical no-go. If we want to answer that million-dollars question of "if flu vaccination itself does any difference in morbidity/mortality among "X" population" in RCT format, then we will need "clear" control of population, that is, enough members of population randomly chosen and then purposefully injected with placebo, which would be ethical no-go.

I actually went through literature list and found and read those four RCTs' articles. The authors of original study had quite a reason to claim that those studies were not high quality evidence despite of being RCTs by format, although the subject is a clearly very difficult one to plan and execute an RCT while avoiding as many biases as possible.

These is one newer study about pediatric influenza-associated deaths (although, I guess, the second conclusion could be disputed):

Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness Against Pediatric Deaths: 21â€“214 | Articles | Pediatrics

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

I am not anti vaccine at all, but I do really question the validity of pushing things such as the flu vaccine and gardasil. The flu vaccine effectiveness is usually under 50%, and the powers that be push it like its eradicating the flu altogether. I agree those that are elderly and at high risk for complications should receive it, but that's it. As far as gardasil is concerned, how about promote regular exams and PAP's by a gynecologist? Vaccines such as MMR and others are necessary, but I feel as if the flu vaccine and gardasil is more about making money. And no, I do not voice my personal beliefs to patients.

Well it is primary prevention, vs screening for something that is happening -- as in this case, cervical dysplasia/CA.

My own thoughts have evolved. As a conservative Christian, as a parent I teach my kids that sex is for married couples, and

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

Editing

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

I am not anti vaccine at all, but I do really question the validity of pushing things such as the flu vaccine and gardasil. The flu vaccine the is usually under 50%, and the powers that be push it like its eradicating the flu altogether. I agree those that are elderly and at high risk for complications should receive it, but that's it. As far as gardasil is concerned, how about promote regular exams and PAP's by a gynecologist? Vaccines such as MMR and others are necessary, but I feel as if the flu vaccine and gardasil is more about making money. And no, I do not voice my personal beliefs to patients.

Well it is primary prevention, vs screening for something that is happening -- as in this case, cervical dysplasia/CA.

My own thoughts have evolved. As a conservative Christian, as a parent I teach my kids that sex is for married couples, and I hope they wait. However, 1) people get tempted, even if they don't intend to be, 2) even for those who consider premarital sex a mistake, nobody deserves a death sentence for it 3) even if she does wait until the wedding night, that doesn't mean her husband will, and 4) women can get STIs from rape. My teenage daughter also knows that this is for certain strains of one virus -- it does NOT make sex safe(er.)

One time visiting my folks, my dad was watching a documentary about vaccines. This dr made an excellent point: we aren't vaccinating against a mode of transmission -- we are vaccinating against a disease."

Heck we've been vaccinating against HBV for years, which can also be transmitted sexually, along with modes that won't happen in the classroom.

Of course efficacy could eventually show to be an issue and that's another story, but on the STI aspect? I can't think of a good reason not to try.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

Sex education should reflect the realities of our society not what we would wish them to be, and as I have already posted links to abstinence only education has shown to increase teenage pregnancy and STI rates.
Adolescent Sexual and Reproductive Health in the United States | Guttmacher Institute

We work to create the reality we want to see in our society. We don't just accept the current status quo if it is not acceptable to us. Ever hear of revolutions?

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

Are you so sure of that? HIV-Specific Criminal Laws | Law | Policy and Law | HIV/AIDS | CDC
https://www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Chart%20of%20U.S.%20Prosecutions%20for%20HIV%20Exposure%202008-17%20%28Updated%20through%20July%202017%29.pdf

There was definitely no quarantine or other public health measure in the beginning. I lived through that time so don't even think of telling me there were. This known killer disease was so politicized that normal public health measures were suspended in dealing with it.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2017

I already did.

cop out