Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally?

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

I would agree that we could say that it can be reasonably presumed that mandating HCW flu vaccination results in better patient outcomes, but "reasonably presume" and "definitively know" are two very different things, and conflating the two only adds fuel to the vaccine conspiracist fire.
I would suggest actually reading the full abstract, since it didn't find that there are currently no RCTs on the subject, it's analysis included 4 cluster-RCTs and a cohort study, these failed to show any improvement in outcomes with the intervention of mandated vaccination. And there is no prohibition or other inability to perform RCTs when it's presumed an intervention will produce better outcomes, that's actually the basis of most RCTs. The approval of an RCT becomes less likely when a proposed intervention is already well established to be harmful, but RCTs where the current balance of outcomes has not shown clear risk are not challenging to getting a study approved, particularly when both groups currently exist in practice (there are currently facilities that do not mandate vaccinations and there are those that do).
Actually the control group would be patients who were cared for by HCWs that were not mandated to be vaccinated, not HCWs that were required to be unvaccinated. Such RCWs already exist and are well within allowable RCT design.

I did read the whole abstract. I understand what are you are implying but I politely disagree that even using the Cochrane database implies that my first statement about flu vaccines and RCTs is incorrect. There is more than sufficient evidence to suggest routine immunization, including influenza vaccine, should be mandated for HCWs. There is virtually no downside to getting the annual flu vaccine. The risk of serious reaction is minute.

References

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

No, it's not because you "have a different view," it's because you demonstrate a lack of knowledge about what the term "herd immunity " means, which is a mathematical concept, not a matter of opinion. It's what I had assumed to be part of every nursing school curriculum, so it was hard for me to believe any licensed nurse would not have had exposure to that very important concept. It's the central point of the term "herd immunity," which you claimed to understand but clearly did not.

It might be part of every curriculum today, but I'm not sure it was 40+ years ago.

I comprehended the term but Klone's example made it clearer.

I don't believe everything I hear/read from so-called experts. There is sometimes a hidden agenda, there is sometimes information intentionally mis-stated or not stated at all, there is probably "fake news" - on both sides of an issue.

Just thinking out loud -

100 people in the herd

95 vaccinated for flu, for instance

3 not

2 can't be vaxed due to med contraindication; these 2 become sick with flu after being around the

other 98, like in school classes or on school buses.

48 who got the vaccine did not become immune. None have shown s & s of flu. We do not

know which these are, no testing for immunity has been done on any of the 100. (assuming

a 50% efficacy rate, which seems to be generally, depending on the year and strain, about 40-

60%.

Where did the 2 become ill? They also go to stores, ride in elevators, are around relatives, go to

doctors and hospitals for their medical problems, go to school, work, or daycare,and are generally not

homebound or reclusive.

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

It might be part of every curriculum today, but I'm not sure it was 40+ years ago.
I comprehended the term but Klone's example made it clearer.
I don't believe everything I hear/read from so-called experts. There is sometimes a hidden agenda, there is sometimes information intentionally mis-stated or not stated at all, there is probably "fake news" - on both sides of an issue.
Just thinking out loud -
100 people in the herd
95 vaccinated for flu, for instance
3 not
2 can't be vaxed due to med contraindication; these 2 become sick with flu after being around the
other 98, like in school classes or on school buses.
48 who got the vaccine did not become immune. None have shown s & s of flu. We do not
know which these are, no testing for immunity has been done on any of the 100. (assuming
a 50% efficacy rate, which seems to be generally, depending on the year and strain, about 40-
60%.
Where did the 2 become ill? They also go to stores, ride in elevators, are around relatives, go to
doctors and hospitals for their medical problems, go to school, work, or daycare,and are generally not
homebound or reclusive.

I'm lost. What is your point?

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

OK, I guess I initially misunderstood both you and the post you're talking about. As I've stated repeatedly, I wish all conversations with parents about vaccines could be respectful enough that it would nudge more of them to vaccinate, so that strong-arming policies like these weren't necessary. But I also understand where those policies come from---it's a not an inherent desire to impose a "nanny state" or "Big Brother watching" or any other nonsense like that spewed by conspiracy theorists. It's because, and I know I sound like a broken record here, public health is at stake.

It's interesting that public health is not at stake apparently when it comes to HIV or even full-blown AIDS.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

Kooky-
With all that this thread has wandered, you have been the most consistent in answering the OP's actual question:
Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally?
In the spirit of distinguishing anecdotal evidence from actual evidence, I will not claim that your responses answer the question definitively. But, you do certainly provide a data point.
Just curious- do you have any sense of the irony of your response to this question?

I don't know what you are trying to say, so please just say it clearly.

Just an aside - I don't know if the original question can really be answered, at least, I am not aware of any studies that could be used to cite actual data that could scientifically tell us the answer. If anyone knows of any, please cite them.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

There is no criteria for the average citizen to get the flu vaccine, but for some reason most patients seem to not want to get the flu from their hcps. Most of those patients expect that their nurses/hcps will follow state and federal healthcare guidelines including getting the flu vaccine.

I doubt most patients know there are GUIDElines about health care workers getting flu shots.

I'll bet most doctors do not get them. No, I have no figures and you likely don't either. Just thinking out loud.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

Mandating that healthcare workers who take care of and work with vulnerable populations to also get their flu vaccine in order to protect said vulnerable population is a good moral choice, and if that healthcare worker does not want to get said vaccinations then they should seriously think about finding another career field that does not put them in regular contact with vulnerable populations.

A lot of personnel who never get near patients are now forced to get flu shots. Don't tell me that is not political on some level.

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

It's interesting that public health is not at stake apparently when it comes to HIV or even full-blown AIDS.

Are you so sure of that? HIV-Specific Criminal Laws | Law | Policy and Law | HIV/AIDS | CDC

https://www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Chart%20of%20U.S.%20Prosecutions%20for%20HIV%20Exposure%202008-17%20%28Updated%20through%20July%202017%29.pdf

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

I don't know what you are trying to say, so please just say it clearly.
Just an aside - I don't know if the original question can really be answered, at least, I am not aware of any studies that could be used to cite actual data that could scientifically tell us the answer. If anyone knows of any, please cite them.

I already did.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2017

This is a blanket cop out from every conspiracy theorist/antivaccine person there is. You don't agree with the evidence so you believe it isn't accurate. It doesn't matter that there is over 200 years of successful vaccine use.

What random straw man arguments about my religious views did I throw out?

I do not necessarily believe it or not believe it. I am not sure. I am on the fence. Do you understand? I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure.

Answer the question you ignored before. Don't pretend you don't see it now. Answer it. What random straw man argument about my religious views did I throw out?

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

A lot of personnel who never get near patients are now forced to get flu shots. Don't tell me that is not political on some level.

Just because you don't have direct contact with patients doesn't mean you aren't a danger. This is basic epidemiology.

How Flu Spreads | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC

allnurses Guide · Oct 28, 2017

What random straw man arguments about my religious views did I throw out?
I do not necessarily believe it or not believe it. I am not sure. I am on the fence. Do you understand? I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure. I am not sure.
Answer the question you ignored before. Don't pretend you don't see it now. Answer it. What random straw man argument about my religious views did I throw out?

There are 17 pages. What question? Repeating yourself over and over doesn't help your argument.