Please help me make this life-changing decision

Uncomfortably Numb · May 7, 2016

One more thought, and this is not to be offensive, but why in the hell would a successful NP go back to school for a DNP?

Let's face it, we're in America. College is a business. Did anybody think for a second that this is just a way for institutions to make more money? It's really not that far-fetched. Think about it, there are a ton of different professions introducing similar doctorate programs for no plausible or logical reason. The scope of practice is the same, the pay is the same, and at the end of the day, you're right where you left off but a hundred thousand in the hole. The only difference is that you'll get hired over the NP. I feel like this is colleague sabotage to an extent.

The best part hasn't even come for the colleges yet. They can't wait for all these NP's to be struggling to find work so they'll go to get a DNP, or at least additional education, just like all the jobless grads with BSN's are going to get a masters. In 30 years, everybody will have to have one to be competitive. This is the part of me that worries, just in case you guys already thought I overanalyze too much. Who knows, may not be (and hopefully isn't), the case.

sailornurse · May 7, 2016

Welcome to all nurses. I think this is your first post. What do you mean if you don't do a residency you'll be stuck in family medicine the family practice residency program in my state it's a three-year residency. I have worked in teaching hospitals. I don't know of any physician specialties that do not do a residency.

I'm a family nurse practitioner and I am credentialed by many commercial insurances also with Medicaid so I don't know what you're talking about when you say you won't get paid. I don't think you've done enough research to understand how this works. In my city there are four different nurse practitioners who own their own practices so clearly they are being paid by commercial insurance.

And what is this BS about the drug testing policies that American hospitals have it's not just the hospitals. It can be any for facility, nursing home ,long-term care home ,health agencies. Most every job even working for pizza delivery may require drug testing. Where exactly are you going to work if you become a nurse?

I am a successful family nurse practitioner and I am planning on getting my DNP starting in the fall. You want to know why because I have 10 years teaching experience and if I go back I will need it. No it will not increase my salary it will open doors and opportunities. By the time I was your age I was an LPN. I've continued to get an associates , bachelors and a Masters so getting my doctoral degree is my terminal degree. It should only cost me about 16 K. FYI I have never had any student loan's and I'm not planning on getting any. This is to your reference about it being 100,000 in the hole. Not sure if you understand that DNP can be in other areas that not all DNPs are nurse practitioners, in your reference to your colleague sabotage.

Did you only apply to one school? You do understand that it's very competitive so of all applicants have high GPAs of 4.0, then it will be the TEAS test score that will be the deciding factor. I taught in a BSN program for 10 years the minimum GPA was 3.0. Many times all students that were accepted, all 48 had a 3.5 and higher. So that means that those with the minimum of 3.0 /3.2 /3.3. Will not get in.

Since you live in Florida you should know that Florida is one of the most restrictive states for a nurse practitioner to practice in. I am fortunate to live in New Mexico where we have had independent practice for over 22 years.

As to the MSN becoming or being inferior to the DNP, that is just your opinion. Coming from someone who is a pre-nursing student trying to get into the profession, doesn't mean a whole lot as you really have nothing to base this opinion on.

Bluebolt · May 7, 2016

Hello UncomfortablyNumb,

It's good to see you're taking your future and career seriously, many students your age are interested in the easiest major that doesn't interfere with their social lives. Your planning and goal setting reminds me of myself 10 years ago and I can tell you that setting goals and being willing to do the work to attain them will help you go far in life.

I've currently met every goal I set when I was your age and am starting my DNP CRNA program this August, which was my final and ultimate goal. I'll admit to you though that your goals and perspective may change as you get older. They most certainly will be more time consuming, frustrating and difficult to attain than you originally plan through your timeline. I say that not to discourage your plans and goals but to help you take life realistically. It will be important in your future to learn to let some things go, take disappointment and rejection with a grain of salt and learn to be persistent but never frenzied and upset, life will work out as it should.

I can tell you've done research and are interested in the field based on all the things you stated while still just being a pre-nursing student at 19 years old.

You didn't mention what job you're doing now. If you aren't working as a nursing assistant, medical assistant or even a lab tech part time while going through school, get on that now. It's important for you to not only know theory of medicine and nursing but to actually see it and be a part of the process, it will open your eyes to the reality of it. It will also teach you the medical hierarchy that is ever-present and you will fall within whatever field in medicine you choose. In nursing school you will be spending a lot of time working in the hospital, you will learn it hard and fast that way if you choose.

Working in the hospital or doctors office gives you valuable time to observe the lifestyle you're choosing to pursue. You will see what frustrates them in their day to day life, you'll see how often they have to skip going to the bathroom, have a patient talk rudely to them, get upset over a difficult diagnosis, get bored with mundane monotony that we all experience, etc.

This strange comment about "American hospitals" drug testing, assuming you're foreign, you should know that pretty much every professional position that has access to medications are subject to annual/random drug testing in the states. I used to be a drug tester and breath alcohol tester for pre-employment physicals when I was in nursing school. I really saw everyone from the janitor to the chief nursing officer of the hospital get drug screened. If you enjoy partaking in illegal or mind altering substances then please stop reading this now and find a different career. Nursing/Medicine is a very very high stress career surrounded by medications that we give all day that make people "feel better", if you have an inkling of a desire for "feel good" stuff please save yourself the time in rehab and the embarrassing and career ending license being revoked and choose another way to help people without the temptation.

Also, you should know that in America after 4 years of an undergrad, taking the MCAT/interviews/acceptance to med school you do 4 more years in med school (you'll be drug tested here too) then you'll be required to complete a bare minimum of a 3 year residency at a hospital. Family Practice is 3 years, Internal Medicine is 3 years, there are a couple to pick from but most of the more interesting ones require another residency or "fellowship" that take a few more years.

The DNP is only being required for CRNA's and that has not been passed along to any of the other advanced practice degrees at this time. It will be much harder to convince CNRP's to go for a DNP when many of them already earn

I hope this adds a little perspective to your decision making. Focus on the small goals in front of you that you can achieve first. Get a job and work alongside these professionals you desire to become one day and make sure their real life is what you're wanting.

synaptic · May 7, 2016

just go to medical school, its worth it in the end. Otherwise youll either end up wiping tail for the rest of your life, or if you get your masters, (by the time your done) the job market will be so saturated with white coat wearing practitioners youll make like two bucks an hour

synaptic · May 7, 2016

One more thought, and this is not to be offensive, but why in the hell would a successful NP go back to school for a DNP?
Let's face it, we're in America. College is a business. Did anybody think for a second that this is just a way for institutions to make more money? It's really not that far-fetched. Think about it, there are a ton of different professions introducing similar doctorate programs for no plausible or logical reason. The scope of practice is the same, the pay is the same, and at the end of the day, you're right where you left off but a hundred thousand in the hole. The only difference is that you'll get hired over the NP. I feel like this is colleague sabotage to an extent.
The best part hasn't even come for the colleges yet. They can't wait for all these NP's to be struggling to find work so they'll go to get a DNP, or at least additional education, just like all the jobless grads with BSN's are going to get a masters. In 30 years, everybody will have to have one to be competitive. This is the part of me that worries, just in case you guys already thought I overanalyze too much. Who knows, may not be (and hopefully isn't), the case.

Im not quite sure I understand all of your first post, since we are able to bill all insurance companies and stuff, and i don't understand the drug testing part either.

But it seems that you know the DNP is pretty much worthless, which means your ahead of most people on this forum. There is no logical reason to go back and get your DNP, its just to make colleges money. I guess if your hard set on being called doctor you can but that isn't a reason to get a degree, just to be called doctor.

Soon will be the time with doctorate prepared nurses wiping tail at the bedside 80000 in debt.

PG2018 · May 8, 2016

If you don't do a residency, you can't even do family medicine. A lack of residency will definitely ruin your career. You only need a license, achievable through intern year, but I believe malpractice coverage and insurance credentialing may be a risk.

If you're 19, go to med school. You won't miss anything...unless you wait. I wish I'd gone, but at my age it's not just me but my family that would have to carry the burden. That's why I'm a NP. I think if you aspire to physician, NP will always be a second best in your mind. Check out the Student Doctor forums at SDN. Bear in mind the children there are super anal.

FYI, you'll always be held down by "the man."

Uncomfortably Numb · May 8, 2016

Thank you all for your different perspectives, it is very helpful to me and I appreciate all of it. I have come to the conclusion that though I have done extensive research, I really don't have a great idea of what healthcare practitioners actually have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. This summer I am planning on taking a couple of classes and shadowing MD's, NP's, and PA's.

I am confident that the only profession I will feel fulfilled and happy in is medicine. I can't think of a better job than saving peoples' lives and healing every single day.

I do have an underlying feeling that I will feel undersatisfied if I do not go to med school, however detrimental to my preferred laxidasical lifestyle that it may be.

Yes, quality of life is very important to me. Quality time off is imperative in order to be a happier person in general unless you're a workaholic.

Thing is, if I did go the nursing route, I would almost certainly go DNP. I can't see who it was who said it on my phone at the moment, but someone above noted that it is probable that all the jobless grads holding BSNs will rush to NP school, effectively flooding the market just as it is now with BSN grads. It makes logical sense to me, and I would prefer to dodge that bullet.

I can't imagine that medical school (the lower-tier ones, in particular), is a whole lot harder to complete than a DNP. I could be wrong, but from a quantitative and logical standpoint, it makes more sense to me to go MD or DO at this point.

I'll most likely do a residency in Patho or derm, if I can make it into a derm residency. Perhaps it is possible to complete a derm residency internationally and then come back to America if I cannot get in for whatever reason. Does anybody have any input on that? I do realize this is the wrong place for that question but many of you are very nice and helpful.

Unfortunately, it appears that I have effectively shot myself in the foot in that I've done 47 credits, many of which are dedicated to nursing prerequisites. It will take me at least a year and a half to complete all of the medical school prerequisites, and that is before I can even start my major. I'd be lucky to be completely done with a bachelor's and all of the required prerequisites for med by the time I'm 23.

There's really no short route here or way to get around this unless anybody knows of any programs that have accelerated undergraduate programs for pre-med. Some schools that I've heard of have articulation agreements with Universities for accelerated programs, but many seem to be connected with carribean medical schools, in which case it would make it impossible for me to ever get into derm in America, at least. I was born and raised in Florida. There seemed to be some confusion as to my whereabouts.

I'm now trying to pick a new major. I'm strongly considering the Health Sciences BS that my school, Florida Gulf Coast University offers. I don't really think it makes sense to do anything medically related for undergrad other than this major, which has no required prerequisites, which is nice. This is because I'll have to do all of the in-depth science courses such as physics, calc, chem, and bio. With those classes I can get into just about any major I want.

Let's hypothetically assume I'm going to medical school for sure. Fast forward to when I'm done with the medical school prerequisites. I now have all of the nursing and med school prerequisites completed, as well as an AA. You have to pick a major before you go to med school.

What is it? Engineering? Computer science? Clinical laboratory science? Health Science (which at my school is heavily based on administration and business, which I could see being very helpful in future practice)? I might as well diversify myself if I'm going to have to take all these extra classes, and it couldn't hurt to have something to fall back on if med school falls through for whatever reason. I'm torn between just doing Health Science or Computer Science, for example. With HS, I will learn all about the business side of healthcare. With CS, I will be very different and have an alternate great career to fall back on, or I would be able to use it to build a business in the future, which is invaluable.

Sorry this reply took awhile, and I apologize for errors. I'm still in Europe and typing this hastily. Thanks, everyone.

synaptic · May 9, 2016

trust us, do medical school. its a lot harder than this nursing stuff, but thats why it pays more. All you have to do to get a doctorate in nursing is write papers and pass easy tests written by literature hungry nurses.

Medical school is real science.

Nursing school stuff is so easy a caveman could do it, hence why there are a billion nurse practitioners and DNPs getting pumped out every year.

Uncomfortably Numb · May 9, 2016

trust us, do medical school. its a lot harder than this nursing stuff, but thats why it pays more. All you have to do to get a doctorate in nursing is write papers and pass easy tests written by literature hungry nurses.
Medical school is real science.
Nursing school stuff is so easy a caveman could do it, hence why there are a billion nurse practitioners and DNPs getting pumped out every year.

I get where you're coming from. I basically committed yesterday and signed up for bio and chem for this summer. My gut feels a lot better now. I wouldn't be quick to knock nursing, though the DNP may be arguably easier.

It makes sense why more people do nursing. It suits family and quality of life undoubtedly better. The lack of autonomy in many states and hoops needed to jump through is what turns me off from it. The world wouldn't go around without them, and that is undeniable, no matter what the medical field looks like.

I just feel that at this point in my life, med school makes the most sense. I don't feel like I've really applied myself anywhere academically yet. I feel like I will be happier knowing that I was all I could be, but for many people it is about priorities. I totally understand why many people wouldn't want to go.

I know that there's no way I'm the only guy out there in my position, so I've been trying to get as many of my thoughts, experiences, and personal pros and cons of the change included in this forum. Hopefully this helps some other dudes in my position.

I have to ask. You seem to have a pretty negative view on nursing, and according to your profile, you are a nurse practitioner? Maybe in school for it? I'm just curious as to why you seem to have so many negative (yet reasonable) opinions regarding the profession.

guest769224 · May 9, 2016

(by the time your done) the job market will be so saturated with white coat wearing practitioners youll make like two bucks an hour

And what do you plan to do when that happens synaptic?

Got a plan?

PG2018 · May 9, 2016

And what do you plan to do when that happens synaptic?
Got a plan?

Open a chain of liquor and tobacco stores. They never seem to go out of business.