New national nurses union forms

karenchad · Dec 18, 2009

To woodenpug- I'm taking your comment to my post as sarcasm. I assure you I was not trying to be funny. I am only commenting on some people think unions make things better, some people think unions make things worse- Bottom line: when there is a union present: the management watches it step. When nurses are diciplined in a unionized hospital- management has to play by rules. Disciplines, counselings etc take place with a union representative. It has to be ligitimate- if the staffer and the union rep feels the counseling is unfair in any way, a greivance is filed, ie. management can not accuse a nurse of a perceived wrong doing if the nurse was not in the building/their day off. If that nurse can prove that- that is a major issue between the union and management. If such a discpline results in a suspension or a termination of that nurse (which it has happened) and the nurse can prove it, the union does the nurses fighting with management for her/him and the end result is: the nurse gets reinstated WITH BACK/LOST PAY!! (not having to go out on her own and pay an attorney their fees) These are the kinds of situations that make me state: a union acts as a watchdog. And the union will keep tabs to make sure that no further actions to that nurse occur- retaliation (yes, it does also happen.) Management/Managers have been known to get down and dirty. Especially when a union makes management PAY OUT MONEY for managements screw ups. Now a day example: an older nurse gets given less a desirable shift, or is 'expected' to float every time there is a need, and other younger staffers don't have to: the expectation is not the same - that is a greivance/ age discrimination. With out a union, management can and does do whatever they want to. The personality conflicts between the staffer do not get to the extemes (ending up in the NM office being told- 'you are not a good fit' ) That 'good fit' crap must be ligitimately defined and must be JOB related. The bullying because some is looked at as being crooked teeth, overweight, too slow, too old, too young, less glamorous, too smart, less smart whatever- doesn't cut it. If they can do their JOB- shut up and leave them alone! If a nurse reports something to management and management does not do anything about it and some major issue arises- the union asks why. If an institution is laying off, restructuring THE UNION HAS TO APPROVE OR REJECT IT. I know this first hand both as a union nurse and a non-union nurse. No way on earth would all this buyout, layoff, termination, hiring freezes would have gone on if there were more unionized nurses. As a union nurse back in the 1990's our small hospital was merging with another small hospital (the later was being closed) meaning nursing positions were lost. We all were given 'packets' with list of positions, according to seniority, we were able to bid on(ie. as a 10 year med/surg nurse, I could not take a position from a 10 or 20 year ER nurse. If that 10 or 20 year ER nurse could do my Med/surg job they could have taken my position) Unions do put the breaks on management. If there is a hiring freeze and the union defines staffing levels unsafe as per negotiated contact terms- the union can demand management hire into those open positions. If I am a new hire- HR has to offer me wages per the union negotiated contractual payscale- not what that HR person or NM Joe Smow thinks I'm worth. All I am saying is there are mutually(contractually negotiated) rules that both side must play by. The contract will state in writing- This is a legal and binding contract agreement between....and .... And both side's( union and management) representatives must sign it. there is no love triangle. This contract stands up in court.

tewdles, RN · Dec 18, 2009

a few points...

a post earlier commented on "nationalization" potentially costing us 1/6th of our budget...health care cost currently run 16-17% of our GDP and are projected to reach 20% in a few short years. Even with that cost too many people have no coverage, no care, and no hope for improvement. too many have been put into financial hardship for medical reasons. too many have paid diligently into insurance policies only to be denied care. the outcomes are below standard. bmw prices for yugo results.

nurses are professionals who are currently treated as general laborers by too many employers, and they are powerless to change it.

there are good hospitals which do not have unions...there are good hospitals which do have unions...however, there is a reason that unions are invited into hospitals and logic would suggest that the good hospital with a union was (once upon a time) not so good to their employees, hence the organization of the staff.

the management of companies is always responsible for the direction and conduct of the company...the buck stops with them. if the company is failing it is because of management choices and visa versa. there is a reason that GM has changed leadership again...the board is not interested in "business as usual" and they have not yet found an "inside man" that is able to change his pattern of business practice sufficiently to please the board (this from an upper mgmt type in the company).

nursing as a profession has always been a bit nervous about a national organization to represent us either locally or nationally. our historical path has not served us well in the the workplace, we need to rethink our strategy. nurses are the reason that hospitals exist...they treat us like disposable laborers yet we are the profession that makes a hospital a hospital. without competent passionate nursing staff ALL health outcomes suffer.

is this the generation of change?

Jerry 75 · Dec 19, 2009

Larger union membership should increase our bargaining power for wages, benefits, and lower Nurse Patient Ratios.

tulip928 · Dec 20, 2009

Larger union membership should increase our bargaining power for wages, benefits, and lower Nurse Patient Ratios.

Look what unions did to the American car industry. It's dead. High pay scale, "cadillac" health benefits, and pensions made American cars overpriced and quality lacking. Look at photos of Detroit, Michigan today for a visual if you need that.

Dream on. Bargaining with who and for what? Exactly where is all the money going to magically come from?

nicurn001 · Dec 20, 2009

Look what unions did to the American car industry. It's dead. High pay scale, "cadillac" health benefits, and pensions made American cars overpriced and quality lacking. Look at photos of Detroit, Michigan today for a visual if you need that.
Dream on. Bargaining with who and for what? Exactly where is all the money going to magically come from?

Look what Management did to the American car industry , its dead , Poor choices in future car developments , poor investment choices , excessive bonuses/health benefits /pensions and pay for themselves made American cars overpriced and quality lacking , look at photos of Detroit and Michigan today for a visual if you need that .

Frankly all to easy to show a different perspective isn't it ?.

Labor can only ask for what it wants , management controls the direction an industry travels and the purse strings , so in the end it is in their hands that , the future of any endevor is determined .

PICUPNP · Dec 20, 2009

So with regard to the auto industry, are you saying that management caused the companies to fail even with the unions in place? Say its not so!! After reading these forums for a while now, I would expect that with a union in place these things wouldn't happen.

If this union is so strong and necessary, why are there only 150K or nurses in the membership with over 3 million nurses in the US? If the unions are everything that you all espouse them to be there should be nurses flocking to the proverbial door step but they are not. This equates to only 5% of Rns throughout the country. Not the best statistics.

For some of the uneducated about the cna or nnoc or the new and improved super union check out these websites:

pronurse.com or stopunions.com and see some of the tactics used when organizing a hospital. They aren't the kind, gentle souls they're made out to be.

Again and again I will say it," Thanks be on high for right to work states! No union dues here. Come one come all!!

nicurn001 · Dec 20, 2009

Nope , I did not say either side caused the collapse of the auto industry , I simply showed from another perspective , how that industries collapse could be viewed .Both sides of the equation have a hand in where the auto industry finds itself now , you cannot simply point your finger at one side as the evil that causes woe and misery .

Wheras you seem to find no good in unions and no bad in management , I am pragmatic enough , to accept that is not the case .I also believe in the democratic process , enough , that I accept that nurses when given a free vote ( one which is free from undue pressure *) , will make the decision as to whether or not a union should represent them . You seem to have a much more monochromatic view of labor relations .

* what befuddles me here is that anti unionist , on the one hand , often ,describe the horrorful tactics of union organisers contacting them eg. going into their break rooms and that the nurses cannot stand the strain of somebody talking to them , so the nurse signs a card . Yet on the other hand they espouse that those same individual nurses are so srong they can stand up to unrelenting pressure from management and like Joan of Arc prevail and lead all to the promised land , Nirvana were all nurses have milk and honeyand in rapture in their wonderful conditions . Sorry remove the rose tinted glasses and see the conditions some of your fellow nurses work under , risking their licenses every day , because even after their heroic efforts there simply aren't enough resources today and probably less tommorow .

Music in My Heart · Dec 20, 2009

Regarding the American auto industry, please note that Ford did not require any public intervention and appears to be on the right path... and they, too, are unionized.

To be sure, the UAW has contributed to the problems of the American auto industry but in my view the problems are more management issues.

Specifically, the decisions regarding the types of vehicles to build and the early decision to eschew the teachings of Deming which drove him to the Japanese car companies and sentenced the Americans to decades of trying to live down their formerly well-earned reputation for lousy quality. The lousy management decisions by the Americans in the late 60's through the early 80's lost them several generations of domestic customers.

There are many other serious management blunders, too - not the least of which was GM's attempt to be all things to all customers.

PICUPNP · Dec 21, 2009

If the need for a union is so prevalent then why hasn't it spread across the US like a fire? It would seem to me that if nurses everywhere work under such dire conditions then they would be running to the unions for support. How can you say that unions are such a necessity in this day and age when only ~5% of RNs are under a union? If the unions have so many benefits, why do nurses continue to seek decertification for their hospitals? Why is it right for unions to petition and get the names and addresses of their nursing staff? When did it become ok for union members to dress in scrubs and go floor to floor, incognito, handing out goodie baskets with union cards in them? and lastly, when did it become ok to walk out on your patients for Any Reason????? Unions are the downfall of nursing.

nicurn001 · Dec 21, 2009

if the need for a union is so prevalent then why hasn't it spread across the us like a fire? it would seem to me that if nurses everywhere work under such dire conditions then they would be running to the unions for support. how can you say that unions are such a necessity in this day and age when only ~5% of rns are under a union? if the unions have so many benefits, why do nurses continue to seek decertification for their hospitals? nurses forget they are the union ,if they don't participate how can it meet your needs ( common to all groups ) , management delays the first contract as long as possible , even though dues are not collected during this period , if nothng is seen to be , being done by the union , nurse start thinking why have the union ( human nature ) why is it right for unions to petition and get the names and addresses of their nursing staff? either the union has an agreement with the employer to allow unions to attempt unionization ( the employers reason for this is that they may be aware of staff discontent ,have been unable to control it ,so to stabilise labor relations they allow union organiser access , whilst working as much as they can to defeat the unions efforts . if enough nurses have shown interest in unionization , then by law the employer has to give that information to the union .when did it become ok for union members to dress in scrubs and go floor to floor, incognito,if the organizers are doing this , then they can be reported to the facilities security and the nlrb for this activity , some nurses from the facility may be going around in their scrubs handing out goodie baskets with union cards in them?you don't have to take the goodies and even if you do there is no obligation to complete a card and lastly, when did it become ok to walk out on your patients for any reason?????this falicy again picupnp , the union members take a vote , if the vote is for a strike , managment is informed if and when a strike is to be called , 10 days notice, is the minimum , it is then managements responsibility to find staff coverage or move patients who cannot be discharged to another facility , discontinue non essential admisions or actually negotiate in good faith for an agreement ,management is resposible to ensure , safe care of the patients , if they have any doubts as to their ability to staff the facility during the strike , they should move the patients !!!!!!. there are very few patients who cannot be moved and in these cases i am sure arrangement ( between management and union )for their care can be made. most nurse do not want to strike ( including myself ) , rather than wonder why it has become ok to walk out on patients , why don't you look to see what it is that has led a group of professionals to feel it is necessary to vote for a strike unions are the downfall of nursing.

the downfall of nursing could occur when people no longer feel it is a secure area of employment as at present , if potential future nurse see their employment prospects diminishing they will not be there to fill the void caused by the continued loss of nurses , who can no longer tolerate the poor conditions the bedside nurses have to tolerate .yes i know your employer is a paragon of management virtue , but look at the other posts upon this forum and even , heaven forbid ,nurses in texas are not all happy with their circumstances .

it takes poor management to create the grievances nurses have , to drive them to want to unionize , unionization at a facility will not suceed , if the staff fell happy with the management and the way they are treated .

karenchad · Dec 21, 2009

My old union nursing contracts all had the opening statement-'Management reserves the right to run it's busines as it deems necessary' The union agrees to that , HOWEVER, the union and management sits down at a bargaining table and hashes out, bargains and negitiates - pensions, wages, days off, vacation time,sick days, health insurance, pay for charge nurses( because it is an added responsibility/accountability) shift diff's, working conditions- staffing ratio's. regulation of diciplines, councelings, terminations, lay-offs. The nurses union protects the nurse from unsafe practices- floating a med/surg nurse into L&D9 I think we all agree on this forum that doing that is an unsafe practice! Do we not? if you are a non union aka, 'at will' institution, management can do that and if you do not go to L&D you are suject to termination for insubordination.) The nursing union DOES NOT tell each nurse how to practice ie. start IV's with gloves on, however the union will make sure management has those glove available for your use, if you choose not to wear them- that's your business. If you are a union nurse-management has decided your unit will be giving chemotherapy from now on( management still has the right to make that decision with a union contract, however, the union says- if you want these RN's to give chem, you must provide them with a course that makes them competent to give chemo, if a union Rn refuses to give chemo because she has not had the course yet, management may write that nurse up, however, that nurse has the right to go to the union and complain, tell their side/ no course, no give chemo, the union representative goes into the NM office with the RN, the RN takes the write up, but the union files a greivance against the write-up stating "unfair labor practices/unsafe nursing practice, the union can take this write-up through a 'formal' dicipline process all the way up to arbitration- very costly now the write up is in a state labor office before an arbitrator(a labor lawyer/ or retired judge who will be paid his fee, if management looses, they pay)this arbitration is held with union leadership- local pres. district or state pres., union lawyer, management- HR representative, HR director, may include the NM who is dumb emough to ask a nurse to give chemo with no training) the same goes for a staffing issue- if the union membership- the staffer RN's who are paying their dues want safe staffing ration's and have this negitiated and put into their contract( which Is agreed to by both sides- NOTHING in that contract is not agreed to by BOTH sides) and the management goes against the mutually agreed upon terms of contracted safe staffing ratio's( not calling a nurse in when they are available, making the other nurses work short handed)- that is a greivance. This is a very easy grieviance for the union to win ( winning is= the nurse that was available to come in and was not called gets paid for that day) as it is put in black and white and in a legally binding contract signed and agreed upon by both union and management and stands up in court! I can remember the union going down a list of RN's for my unit, calling us at home and asking us if we were called to come in for a unit that was short staffed and NO ONE was called to come in for the OT. Every one on that list that would have come in got paid for the day in question!! Management stopped that shinanigans right quick. A union will not allow nurses to work with dangerous staffing level while the CEO, cut staffing to keep their fat paychecks. If nurses are needed they are going to be provided. there was none of this business of new grads working for free, in exchange for experience. I could see my former union Pres ( an older ER RN) marching into the nursing office over that one!! If any nurse is working they are getting paid according to the contracted payscale. The union has nothing to do with this customer service crap, or management's profit margin, or medicare/medicaid fraud- that is entirely on management. If management wants to charge a patient $300,000 for a Flu shot, that's between management and the insurance companyand/or the fed's. the union is not involved.( the union may laugh their butts off when the hospital gets questioned and fined).

Jerry 75 · Dec 21, 2009

I am not sure where your coming from back ground wise, are you a staff Nurse or supervisor/administrator? When you talk about Union members handing out Union crds on the floor incognito why does that bother you? Why do you feel threatened by that? If the hospitals did not intimidate their workers to scare them from joiing the Union they would not have to go around incognito.

It almost sounds to me like you may have been intimidated or indoctrinated by administration to be affraid of and anti union. Is that the case with you?

And in regards to your comments about Nurses abandi=oning their patients? What is that all about? Are you refrerring to a strike situation? If so Hopsitals are given notice ahead of time and administrators have to get off their fat butts and do some work to fill in for the striking Nurses and plenty of Scabs sneak in to make double time and sabotage the Nurses on strike efforts to improve Hospital conditions. I wonder if you were one of the self righteous saboteur's/ do gooders who crossed the picket line???

Well after the 2 strikes that I have been thru in 2 hospitals conditions improved!

Improved Nurse/Patient Ratio, Bennies got better, big improvement in pay and eventually mopre open communhications between staff/adminsitration and Union

From the article "Labor Unions" http://www.freeessays.cc/db/11/bmu374.shtml :

"As long as nurses continue to feel disenfranchised, unprotected and under siege by doctors and health care administrators, interest in unions will grow stronger. Nurses organize not only to protect themselves, but also to protect the patients under their care, as evidenced by the recent activity regarding staffing levels and acuity systems. Administrators should attempt to understand nurses. If you allow nurses to effectively care for their patients"