Calif RN disagrees with CNA in many ways. Am I alone? - page 6

Hello! I am new to this site but felt compelled to ask the question. Am I the only RN in Calif that disagrees with CNA's "teamster tactics" regarding important health care and nursing issues? These... Read More

  1. by   fergus51
    No, members can't vote on how their money is spent anymore than citizens get to vote on how our tax dollars are spent. You get to elect the people who get to decide. It would be pretty impractical to have members vote on how every dollar is spent don't you think? I think you can have a political objection and only pay for union activities not related to politics. One of the nurses I work with pays less because she doesn't want her money to go to political activities. Yes, it involves some paperwork but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

    The reason nurses in a union shop can't just choose to keep all their money is because it wouldn't be fair to those who do pay union dues since everyone gets to benefit from the contract. My current hospital voted in CNA a few years ago and before they did, they were one of the lowest paid and most abused bunch in the area. Now the wages are competitive and the staffing is set by the contract. All of the nurses and patients benefit from that, so it would be ridiculous to say that only some nurses should pay for all the union expenses. Unions don't come unless the nurses there vote them in. If the nurses don't want to pay union dues or give money to a charity, they can always vote with their feet.
  2. by   Sheri257
    Every organization is self serving, including the union. I'll agree with the union opponents on that.

    But don't tell me that stopunions.com or these other anti-union groups aren't self serving either.

    They want to enjoy the benefits of the ratio law and other CNA sponsored legislation without having to pay for it.

    Talk about self serving.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jun 26, '05
  3. by   Sherwood
    Quote from lizz
    Every organization is self serving, including the union. I'll agree with the union opponents on that.

    But don't tell me that stopunions.com or these other anti-union groups aren't self serving either.

    They want to enjoy the benefits of the ratio law and other CNA sponsored legislation without having to pay for it.

    Talk about self serving.

    How can you give all the credit for what nurses have accomplished entirely to the CNA nurses? How dare you imply that only union nurses fight for nurses rights or patient safety!
    Do you truly believe that only nurses who support the California Nurses Assocation are writing our Governor, our Congressman and our State Assembly? The union nurses only represent a small fraction of dedicated, hardworking professionals on the front line of patient care. Just because the California Nurses Association chooses to grab headlines and make a mockery of the hard work and dedication of all the heroes of nursing who choose to work quietly behind the scenes in the support of each other and of our patients.
    How can we attract young people into the field of nursing when their perception of nurses are the ones they see yelling and screaming in the streets holding picket signs and drowning out the speeches of our Governor just because we disagree with him. I teach my kids to listen carefully, decide, and then take action without all the self serving drama.
  4. by   PMHNP10
    Quote from Sherwood
    How can you give all the credit for what nurses have accomplished entirely to the CNA nurses? ...Do you truly believe that only nurses who support the California Nurses Assocation are writing our Governor, our Congressman and our State Assembly? Just because the California Nurses Association chooses to grab headlines and make a mockery of the hard work and dedication of all the heroes of nursing who choose to work quietly behind the scenes in the support of each other and of our patients.
    Here's an opportunity for me to learn. I wasn't in CA in the late 90s so I thought based upon what I read that it was the lobbying, protesting, palm greasing efforts (or whatever) of the CNA that got the ratios passed through the govt.; and the same entity who questioned the govenor's efforts to halt the ratios this year and ultimately achieved the goal of keeping them active. So how much credit, if any, does the CNA deserve for the passing and upholding of the ratio laws? Was it common knowledge amongst nurses that the CNA was attempting to get the Ratio law passed and they (the CNA) pleaded to every nurse in the state to write their congressperson to tell them the importance of such a law? Or, does the CNA deserve none of the credit for getting the laws passed--i.e. it was the combined letter writing campaign of average Joe and Jane RN that pushed the laws through the legislature? And was it those same Joe and Jane RNs who took Arnold to court to decide the fate of the ratio laws? If so, that's quite amazing that they were able to unite for one cause in a non union manner and accomplish what they did. My hat is off to the individual CA nurses who worked so hard to get the ratios passed. I only wish a whole lot of individual nurses in TX would write their reps. and get the ratio laws passed for TX.

    Quote from Sherwood
    How can we attract young people into the field of nursing when their perception of nurses are the ones they see yelling and screaming in the streets holding picket signs and drowning out the speeches of our Governor just because we disagree with him.
    I'm sure a few young people watch the news and see these nurses acting as they are and immediately dismiss nursing as a future profession based solely on that; however, I'd bet that a far more significant reason for the nursing shortage (which is in reality not a shortage of nurses, rather a shortage of nurses willing to work at the bedside) is the working conditions combined with not enough faculty available to educate the hopeful nursing candidates. I hear and read on this board of all kinds of 2, 3, 4+ yr waiting lists to get into a nursing program, so to me it sounds like the image of nursing hasn't adversely affected the interest in nursing as a career until they actually pass boards and start working as a RN at the hospital bedside, at which time the image of nursing is rapidly flushed down the toilet with the assistance of the rude doctors, cannibalistic fellow nurses, profit driven administration, unsafe working conditions, and disrespectful patients. Of course this is JMHO.
    Last edit by PMHNP10 on Jun 24, '05
  5. by   fergus51
    I don't think it was ONLY CNA nurses that got the ratios into law, but let's face it, they were the primary reason, the most vocal group and they are the only ones taking Ahnold to court to maintain them.

    I don't know any non-union group that does as much as CNA does on a practical level like with the ratios. If anyone does, maybe they could post a link so all nurses who are interested in a non-union, but still organized group could join?
  6. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Sherwood
    How can you give all the credit for what nurses have accomplished entirely to the CNA nurses? How dare you imply that only union nurses fight for nurses rights or patient safety!
    I'm really getting tired of this. Again, this is a cheap shot and totally out of context. If you take another quote of mine out of context, I will report it to the moderators.

    Let's review what I said again since you can't seem to read or, at least, comprehend what you are reading.

    Quote from lizz
    Every organization is self serving, including the union. I'll agree with the union opponents on that.

    But don't tell me that stopunions.com or these other anti-union groups aren't self serving either.

    They want to enjoy the benefits of the ratio law and other CNA sponsored legislation without having to pay for it.

    Talk about self serving.
    I was referring to the RATIO LAW which CNA deserves full credit for. Have non-union nurses paid to defend the ratio law in court multiple times? NO.

    If CNA hadn't hired the lawyers and paid for that litigation multiple times there would be no ratio law today.

    No CNA = No Ratio Law.

    :angryfire
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jun 26, '05
  7. by   Geeg
    CNA has been successful in getting the ratio law passed in California. The ANA has more money and membership and has failed to accomplish anything close to the magnitude that CNA has accomplished.
  8. by   Sherwood
    Quote from imkw_np
    Hello! I am new to this site but felt compelled to ask the question. Am I the only RN in Calif that disagrees with CNA's "teamster tactics" regarding important health care and nursing issues? These people do not represent me. I am NOT a memeber nor do I want to be. I have made job decisions based on whether I would have to belong to CNA. I find the leadership self-serving and power-drunk and I have since moving to Northern Cal in 1991. When CNA made the split with ANA it became very clear to me that CNA did not have my professional well being in mind. The union affiliations CNA have sought and gained make no sense to me. The hiring of Rose Ann DeMoro was the clincher. Anyway, I would love to hear from others who feel the same way since CNA has been successful in getting all over the press and running down the image of nurses as highly educated, skillfull and professional people.
    Nurses who voted in the CNA have now realized that you do not get what you pay so much for. Two Southern California hospitals have had their nurses file Decertification Petitions with the NLRB. Scripps Hospital in Encinitas and now St. Vincents Medical Center in Los Angeles.
  9. by   nursbaybie
    I'd like to make a comment about staffing ratio laws. At the hospital where I work (Med surg), we seldom have more than 5 patients however we have total patient care with no CNAs. Everyone I work with would much rather have 7 or 8 patients with sufficient CNAs. How is everyone else dealing with that part? Besides, if the hospital is out of compliance and does give us more than the alotted number of patients, can we be fired for insubordination by refusing to take more than 5 patients? I have been wondering about that.
    Thanks.
  10. by   PMHNP10
    Quote from nursbaybie
    I'd like to make a comment about staffing ratio laws. At the hospital where I work (Med surg), we seldom have more than 5 patients however we have total patient care with no CNAs. Everyone I work with would much rather have 7 or 8 patients with sufficient CNAs. How is everyone else dealing with that part? Besides, if the hospital is out of compliance and does give us more than the alotted number of patients, can we be fired for insubordination by refusing to take more than 5 patients? I have been wondering about that.
    Thanks.
    I believe they are violating the law, but I'd defer to spacenurse. If you check some of the links she's posted in here I'm sure she addresses your concern. Also, if you take an extra patient which puts you out of compliance of the law and you God forbid make a mistake, you have a bigger problem on your hands than insubordination. It is yours and your colleagues' duty to refuse patients if it puts you and/or your patients' safety in jeopardy. There is also a form you fill out (which I again refer you to links Spacenurse has posted on here many a times) which I believe helps protect you in cases where you are exceding the legal maximums allowed by the law.
  11. by   pickledpepperRN
    Here is the section of Title 22 that references why the nursing assistants must not be decreased:

    70217. Nursing Service Staff

    (a) Hospitals shall provide staffing by licensed nurses, within the scope of their licensure in accordance with the following nurse-to-patient ratios. Licensed nurse means a registered nurse, licensed vocational nurse and, in psychiatric units only, a licensed psychiatric technician. Staffing for care not requiring a licensed nurse is not included within these ratios and shall be determined pursuant to the patient classification system....

    Title 22 also states, "The hospital shall implement a patient classification system for determining nursing care needs of individual patients that reflects the assessment, made by a registered nurse of patient requirements and provides for shift-by-shift staffing based on those requirements. The ratios specified in subsection (a) shall constitute the minimum number of registered nurses, licensed vocational nurses, and in the case of psychiatric units, licensed psychiatric technicians, who shall be assigned to direct patient care. Additional staff in excess of these prescribed ratios, including non-licensed staff, shall be assigned in accordance with the hospital's documented patient classification system for determining nursing care requirements, considering factors that include the severity of the illness, the need for specialized equipment and technology, the complexity of clinical judgment needed to design, implement, and evaluate the patient care plan, the ability for self-care, and the licensure of the personnel required for care."

    The DHS has cited hospitals for an RN changing the acuity of a patient without performing and charting an assessment.
    -----------------
    When asked to float to a unit where I am not competent, to stay over after a 12 hour shift, or asked to admit another patient when it would be unsafe I say -
    "I would if I could
    but I can't
    because"
    (Give the reason) "To do so because to do so would place my patients in jeopardy because
    "I am not competent to care for laboring mothers" or
    "I would be so tired I could make an error" or
    "Worry about my family would distract me into making a mistake" or
    "If I admit a new patient my current patients will not get their care in a timely manner. My documentation may be incomplete. I will have to fill out an incident report." You can fill out two incident reports if you have to because one needs to go to the hospital attorney. (You can always quote the regulations or attach a copy)
    Don't say, "I refuse" because management considers that insubordination.

    Title 22 Section 70217 - http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=104387&E22=Title%2022&E23=70 217&E24=&infobase=ccr&querytemplate=%261.%20Go%20t o%20a%20Specific%20Section&record={62C9A}&softpage =Browse_Frame_Pg42

    or if the above doesn't work use this. http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/Templates/CCR/Sectem.htm
    Type Title 22 in the TITLE box, 70217 in the SECTIOB box, leave Search Terms blank.
    Do the same for Section 70215, the nursing process. This is why with few to no exceptions the ratios should be RN only with LVNs and CNA/NAs part of the team used for the MANDATORY staffing up according to the acuity system.
  12. by   pickledpepperRN
    http://www.dhs.ca.gov/lnc/pubnotice/...37-01_FSOR.pdf

    In this Statement of Reasons on page 20 the State of California Department of Health Services (DHS) clarifies that, "A hospital cannot reduce staffing by assigning duties customarily and appropriately performed by unlicensed staff, it is stated that staffing for care not requiring a licensed nurse is not included in these ratios and shall be determined pursuant to the patient classification system (PCS) Often called the acuity system.
  13. by   bluesky
    Quote from spacenurse
    Here is the section of Title 22 that references why the nursing assistants must not be decreased:

    70217. Nursing Service Staff

    (a) Hospitals shall provide staffing by licensed nurses, within the scope of their licensure in accordance with the following nurse-to-patient ratios. Licensed nurse means a registered nurse, licensed vocational nurse and, in psychiatric units only, a licensed psychiatric technician. Staffing for care not requiring a licensed nurse is not included within these ratios and shall be determined pursuant to the patient classification system....

    Title 22 also states, "The hospital shall implement a patient classification system for determining nursing care needs of individual patients that reflects the assessment, made by a registered nurse of patient requirements and provides for shift-by-shift staffing based on those requirements. The ratios specified in subsection (a) shall constitute the minimum number of registered nurses, licensed vocational nurses, and in the case of psychiatric units, licensed psychiatric technicians, who shall be assigned to direct patient care. Additional staff in excess of these prescribed ratios, including non-licensed staff, shall be assigned in accordance with the hospital's documented patient classification system for determining nursing care requirements, considering factors that include the severity of the illness, the need for specialized equipment and technology, the complexity of clinical judgment needed to design, implement, and evaluate the patient care plan, the ability for self-care, and the licensure of the personnel required for care."

    The DHS has cited hospitals for an RN changing the acuity of a patient without performing and charting an assessment.
    -----------------
    When asked to float to a unit where I am not competent, to stay over after a 12 hour shift, or asked to admit another patient when it would be unsafe I say -
    "I would if I could
    but I can't
    because"
    (Give the reason) "To do so because to do so would place my patients in jeopardy because
    "I am not competent to care for laboring mothers" or
    "I would be so tired I could make an error" or
    "Worry about my family would distract me into making a mistake" or
    "If I admit a new patient my current patients will not get their care in a timely manner. My documentation may be incomplete. I will have to fill out an incident report." You can fill out two incident reports if you have to because one needs to go to the hospital attorney. (You can always quote the regulations or attach a copy)
    Don't say, "I refuse" because management considers that insubordination.

    Title 22 Section 70217 - http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=104387&E22=Title%2022&E23=70 217&E24=&infobase=ccr&querytemplate=%261.%20Go%20t o%20a%20Specific%20Section&record={62C9A}&softpage =Browse_Frame_Pg42

    or if the above doesn't work use this. http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/Templates/CCR/Sectem.htm
    Type Title 22 in the TITLE box, 70217 in the SECTIOB box, leave Search Terms blank.
    Do the same for Section 70215, the nursing process. This is why with few to no exceptions the ratios should be RN only with LVNs and CNA/NAs part of the team used for the MANDATORY staffing up according to the acuity system.
    Darn you're good!

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