Why Do Anesthesiologists Despise CRNA's?

[DermNP2Be]

Hello all! I was browsing a student doctor forum that I've been lurking around on for years "Student Doctor Network" (Gasforums). After reading through a lot of the posts, I was a little concerned. Just wondering if anyone knows why they despise CRNA's so much? It's very alarming and confusing to me. I've seen some talk about it before on this forum, but jeez- it's really bad over there! They're sarcastic, mean, joke about CRNA's, post all sorts of things about the legislations and bills concerning AA's in the hopes that CRNA's jobs will be abolished one day?! Why so much anger? Being a CRNA is my ultimate goal one day, but I would not feel comfortable working in an environment where there are doctors that hate me or resent me- just for my job? When my sis had her baby and the anesthesiologist came in to talk to her, I took the opportunity to talk to him about my interest in becoming a CRNA. He was so helpful and actually went to a website (gaswork.com) on his laptop computer to show me all the jobs for CRNA. Then he said if he could do it again would've went that route! So am I to understand that the majority of docs are not like him?

[FlGasman]

My father is a Cardiologist and he always states how the medical profession is going down the drain and several of his collegues always complain how medicine isn't fun any more. Take in mind he has been a doctor, board certified in Internal Medicine and Cardiology, for 38 years! From what I can see, it all stems from money and greed. I gaurentee you if I was a DO who is in family practice, with 7 years of medical school, making only $100-150K a year. While a CRNA with only 2-3 years of study can make up to 35-50% more in their first year!

I also believe it is your personality that determine's how people treat you. If you let MD's talk down to you they will. But if you are dominant, make level eye contact, are confident, and pleasant they will most likely be really nice to you. And just because a person talks a big game like the MDA on the other forum, my guess is they are all bark and no bite.

Science and Medicine is evolving and will always evolve. Do you know how much heat DO's took when they where trying to prove they can be just as effective as MD's in their early years?[/quo

This is some of the problem right here. I suppose if I thought I put in 8 years of school with 1 year of residency (family doc) then I would be upset when 2-3 years of school made about what I made. But the fact is this

Crna = 4 years bachelors (usually five because most people dont get a BSN in 4) + 28 months of school plus 2 years of ICU (similar to residency)

Crna- total 8.5 years

Family doc- 9 years

I dont see what they are so pissed about, but crna education is misrepresented

[skipaway]

My cousin (the anesthesiologist), says that the CRNAs blame the anesthesiologist when there is a problem as the responsibility is ultimately the anesthesiologist who is in charge. --Personally, I am one to take the blame when it is due me. I will even speak up if necessary. I think I can understand her point that she has more stress --she has to answer for the actions of others, as well as herself...

The responsibility is ultimately mine, (The CRNA) not the anesthesiologist. We may share some kind of litigation but if I made the mistake, I take the blame. And I find some of the anesthesiologists that I've worked with over the years are quick to blame the CRNA for problems that occur. I don't know how many times I've heard, "They didn't call me in time, if I'd been there this wouldn't have happened...etc."

[To cut is to cure]

quo

This is some of the problem right here. I suppose if I thought I put in 8 years of school with 1 year of residency (family doc) then I would be upset when 2-3 years of school made about what I made. But the fact is this

Crna = 4 years bachelors (usually five because most people dont get a BSN in 4) + 28 months of school plus 2 years of ICU (similar to residency)

Crna- total 8.5 years

Family doc- 9 years

I dont see what they are so pissed about, but crna education is misrepresented

That's really informative! My god, I had no idea that a physician could practice with one year of residency since perhaps 30 years ago! I was sure that things had changed. Oh wait, they have.

CRNA:

2 years in community college

2 years for BSN (Or 4, if you did not attending community college)

2 years SRNA

MD:

4 years college

4 years medical school

3 year for family doctor (it's not 1960 anymore). but they are hardly comparable to CRNA

5-9 years for surgeon

4 years for anesthesia

6 years for nursing vs 12 for anesthesiologist. not really the same.

[FlGasman]

That's really informative! My god, I had no idea that a physician could practice with one year of residency since perhaps 30 years ago! I was sure that things had changed. Oh wait, they have.

CRNA:

2 years in community college

2 years for BSN (Or 4, if you did not attending community college)

2 years SRNA

MD:

4 years college

4 years medical school

3 year for family doctor (it's not 1960 anymore). but they are hardly comparable to CRNA

5-9 years for surgeon

4 years for anesthesia

6 years for nursing vs 12 for anesthesiologist. not really the same.

First off, I have seen residents and read literature on MDs opening up urgent care centers with a 1 year internship only ( encountering a lot of problems too from what I have read). They are allowed to call themselves family practitioners and have a medical license.

its not 6 years, you have to have 2 years of icu experience (some say one but no one has less then two and most have 4)

so lets try again-

4 years bachelor

2 years icu-

2.5 years masters-

im pretty sure thats 8 and a half years. If you are not counting the ICU experience because its paid then you shouldnt count residency- the first two years of nursing out of school is only slightly better pay then a resident's at best. Besides the pay most nurses learn a staggering amount in their first two years out so it is an educational experience and thus an educational requirement. ( alittle food for thought:,perhaps MDs are over qualified for anesthesia? no I haven't memorized the Krebs cyucle as many times and to that detail and I won't have delivered 10 babies but does that make me a less capable provider?)

Also lets not forget that nurses have regularly been practicing anesthesia since before doctors ever did. Dr Mayo coined a nurse ( allice magaw I think) the "mother of anesthesia." So all of a sudden there is money involved in it so the nurses are supposed to slide over because the MDs need money. Sorry it doesnt work that way. The ASA (or some American anesthesiologist) coined the word anesthesiologist, the Brits and everywhere else call themselves anesthetist (or anaesthetist) but then again the British MDs practiced anesthesia when american MDs shunned it(that is how nurses came to practice anesthesia to begin with in the US) Nurses never had to step in in the UK and practice it and the British didnt have to develop any words to distinguish themselves.

Now, that being said, there were some American docs involved but apparently there were also a pervasive attitude where many were not involved (in anesthesia). I realize that many advances have been made in Anesthesia and I am happy to work with Anesthesiologist nor do I think my training is equal, however study after study by both sides has shown that care and safety are equal. Anesthesiologist enjoy among the highest standard of living of all physicians and make between 2 and 3 times CRNA salaries. It is nothing more then ignorance, fear and greed which drives a wedge between us. I think most CRNAs are happy with the status quo they just want options and to protect themselves from actions that disturb the power balance ( like expanding the AA use and/or practice). Anesthesiologists ( not all but some very loud ones) seem to want to turn the clock back on our salaries and practice limits and put money back in their own pockets and some of the tactics they use are quite hostile and fear based.

[dfk, RN, CRNA]

That's really informative! My god, I had no idea that a physician could practice with one year of residency since perhaps 30 years ago! I was sure that things had changed. Oh wait, they have.

CRNA:

2 years in community college

2 years for BSN (Or 4, if you did not attending community college)

2 years SRNA

MD:

4 years college

4 years medical school

3 year for family doctor (it's not 1960 anymore). but they are hardly comparable to CRNA

5-9 years for surgeon

4 years for anesthesia

6 years for nursing vs 12 for anesthesiologist. not really the same.

yup,

that !

however, i have talked with many CAs, and most of them say that they only require a 3 yr rotation.

i believe it is program/site specific

[ralatek]

Just goes to show you how awesome CRNAs are in that they provide the same quality of care and can learn anesthesia in 1/2 the time according to the above posted time table. Granted, the 12 year time frame (MDA) is accurate but I think you underestimated the CRNA time table a bit. I would add another year or two to that 6 for the critical care experience that is necessary. Yes, some could get in with the minimum 1 year and obtain their BSN at the same time but that definetly does not make up the majority.

[dfk, RN, CRNA]

its not 6 years, you have to have 2 years of icu experience (some say one but no one has less then tywo and mostg have 4)

so lets try again-

4 years bachelor

2 years icu-

2.5 years masters-

i am a dumb nurse I know but im pretty sure thats 8 and a half years.

also lets not forget that nurses have been practicing anesthesia since before doctors ever did. Dr Mayo coined a nurse ( allice magaw I think) the "mother of anesthesia." Sd o all of a sudden there is money involved in it so the nurses are supposed to slide over because the MDs need money. Sorry it doesnt work that way. Oh and i like how the ASA made up the word anesthesiologist, the Brits and everywhere else call them selv es anesthetist (or anaesthetist) but then again the British MDs practiced anesthesia when american MDs shunned it so nurses never had tio step in and practice it and the British didnt have to make up any words to distinguish themselves.

ummm, we should do this one more time.

the two years of icu are NOT years of education.

while in the adn/bsn/msn programs, it is surely easy enough to work ft/pt (i even know of two srna's that work f/t during their program, mostly during didactic portions). i don't think that applies to being in med school.

so those should not and cannot be counted in the years of education figure.

thanks for listening~

[GregRN]

ummm, we should do this one more time.

the two years of icu are NOT years of education.

while in the adn/bsn/msn programs, it is surely easy enough to work ft/pt (i even know of two srna's that work f/t during their program, mostly during didactic portions). i don't think that applies to being in med school.

so those should not and cannot be counted in the years of education figure.

thanks for listening~

Interesting. If being paid is your litmus test for determining whether it's called education or not, your argument just got weaker.

Undergrad: whether the major is nursing or biology, most people worked during undergrad. So, if one worked getting a BSN or a BS in biology, this cannot be considered education according to your argument. I guess that cancels those out.

Medical school: they're all four years long. The volume of work during this time doesn't allow for students to work. This, then, according to your test, is called education: 4 years.

CRNA school: SRNA's do not work during CRNA school. Most programs average 2.5 years; some are more, some are less. Anyone who says they are working full time during any portion of CRNA school is feeding you a line of bull. The same number of people who work during CRNA school is probably the same proportion as those who work during med school We'll call it a draw and say that you don't work during CRNA school. This, then, is called education: 2.5 years.

Residency: Interns and residents are being paid during this time. 3 years of residency and a one year fellowship for MD's are all paid. I guess this isn't education either then, according to your test.

ICU experience: the average student in CRNA school has 4 years of ICU experience. However, this is paid, and according to your test does not count as education.

So, there's your argument in your own terms: MD's have 4 years of education, CRNA's have 2.5. And if education determines pay, and an MD is paid 300K on average for anesthesia, then CRNA's should get 187K on average. Looks like according to your terms, CRNA's are underpaid.

[FlGasman]

ummm, we should do this one more time.

the two years of icu are NOT years of education.

while in the adn/bsn/msn programs, it is surely easy enough to work ft/pt (i even know of two srna's that work f/t during their program, mostly during didactic portions). i don't think that applies to being in med school.

so those should not and cannot be counted in the years of education figure.

thanks for listening~

We could go back and forth on this and that but I was wondering what your point was..... Maybe that we are over paid and under qualified? If thats what you are driving at lets just agree to disagree. This is starting to get ugly and no one here needs your negativity. People have worked very hard to become competent CRNAs and if you have a problem with the profession, its YOUR problem

[heartrn35]

ummm, we should do this one more time.

the two years of icu are NOT years of education.

while in the adn/bsn/msn programs, it is surely easy enough to work ft/pt (i even know of two srna's that work f/t during their program, mostly during didactic portions). i don't think that applies to being in med school.

so those should not and cannot be counted in the years of education figure.

thanks for listening~

ummm, let me get this right

I learned what I know about taking care of cabg/valve from nursing school. Not hardly. The first two (and possibly more) years in the ICU was nothing but learning. But the residents get to claim it when they are the ones coming to me because they don't know why the epicardial wires aren't coming out the way they are supposed to. SO when residents aske me questions its educational, but when I'm going to classes for eight hours a week to learn critical care that's "just my job" that makes sense.

And I would really like to know who the two supermen/superwomen were that worked FULL TIME during their CRNA program. That may be stretching the truth just a wee bit. Besides there are no residents moonlighting?

Lastly what kind of medical professional are you that you come on a nursing web site and speak in such an inflammatory manner????

Oh and thanks for listening...:trout:

[deepz]

......i even know of two srna's that work f/t during their program .....

Don't believe it.

[GregRN]

MD's/DO's will always talk about and stress their education and training, which by itself really is impressive. But we're talking about outcomes in anesthesia here...totally different ballgame here. We're not diagnosing and curing diseases, we're managing patients' responses to various stimuli, whether it be physical (surgeon) or chemical (drugs). This is something nurses from the ICU have been doing for years. And I really hate to play the role of Captain Obvious but training and education are only relevant to the extent that it leads to better outcomes. If I spend 20 years in anesthesia training, should I be paid more than any anesthesiologist with only four years? Only if my outcomes are five times better. In business it's called diminishing returns, and at some point more training does not equal better results. So unless someone can point to some well designed outcome studies comparing the various anesthesia providers, any claims of superiority are only rhetoric and saber rattling.