Why is CA BRN too picky?

rcristoLPN2010 · Feb 21, 2011

Good luck finding a job in California! I've lived here 35 years, and after being laid off in 2009, I had trouble finding work.
I can't work nights, for one thing.
Another issue is the number of travelers from other states who come here and take jobs.
Also, there are many nurses here from a particular cultural background, and they often work 2 FT jobs or a FT and a PT---more power to them, but it reduces the number of positions available.
Ironically, I had to start traveling myself to get work. I travel within California and get day-shift contracts, but I have to leave my home for weeks on end.
Seriously, if you don't already live here, please don't come.

I'm an LVN who just got my CA license and comeback here right away from my vacation in Manila thought of finding a job right away. BUT NOPE. They dont like new nursing grads here and they dont hire nurses without at least one year experience. So what the point of getting a license in this state where you can't find a single job to hire you..this STATE SUCKS!! I hate being here and working on getting out and get my reciprocity to work in other state. Good luck!!!

HannaBee · Feb 23, 2011

Maybe the answer is that we all leave California :coollook: I swear it's the only state so broke there are no school buses for the school children and we pay very high taxes with so little in return...

Rabid Response · Feb 27, 2011

I love California; it's a great place to be a nurse. The ratios are good, working conditions are better than in most other states, and wages are excellent. So many nurses want to live and work here that California can afford to be picky. If there are plenty of BSNs and ADNs already living in CA and graduating from nursing schools IN THIS STATE (and holy crap there sure are), why should our BRN accommodate out-of-state grads of an out-of-state ONLINE nursing program? I don't think the CA BRN is being too picky; if anything, they are not picky enough. You knew what you were signing up for with Excelsior, why cry about it now?

NurseCubanitaRN2b, BSN, RN · Feb 27, 2011

It's the BRNs job to make sure that patient safety isn't compromised when licensing ANY person. However, what they are currently doing is picking and choosing which rules and regulations they will follow. There are out of country applicants that are graduating from schools that DON'T meet CAs so called standards but these applicants are able to take the NCLEX exam anyway while Excelsior graduates are having a hard time just endorsing their RN license in. Just to clarify things Excelsior College IS NOT an ONLINE school totally. The nursing component for the ADN is a correspondence program. Which, there is a difference. Excelsior College has an EXCELLENT nursing program and has won several awards and is accredited through NLNAC. Excelsior College has also produced great nurses that I have seen out perform nurses from your "traditional" nursing programs. I have to agree with one of the previous posters who stated it has come down to a political game with the state. I truely believe it's CAs way to keep students from attending out of state programs and forcing them to apply to already impacted nursing programs in CA.

I have to agree about the CA BRN not being too picky. I believe they need to be more picky when it comes to out of country graduates. Those who graduate from out of country should be required to take an English exam equivalent to college level English. It doesn't matter whether your instruction was in English or not, if you can't communicate verbally or written, then you should be required to take remedial English courses. I also believe that there should be some transition course with a clinical component that should be taken in order for the out of country graduates to learn the rules and regulations of the state that they are seeking licensure in. What is practiced in one country might not be practiced in another. The scope of practice is different for each country, but the basic nursing care is about the same. Just my added thoughts.

sasyone · Feb 27, 2011

Correspondence, online, distance learning take your pick of what you want to call it. I never worked for the RN Board however, do know many friends there. Google CA Board of Registered Nursing vs Excelsior as they went to court a few years ago. It is NOT political to gain students for CA schools. I'm not 100% sure on their rules however, I do know the clinicals must be concurrent to the theory class. If foreign schools who have been approved are not doing this, they are not telling the truth to the BRN. It's not a pick and choose who they will accept, that is their regulation for ALL RN schools. It's becoming so swarmy out there with some foreign nursing schools who will sign ANYTHING whether true or not.

caliotter3 · Feb 28, 2011

The CA BRN will never become more picky when it comes to graduates of foreign nursing schools as long as there is an incentive for that entity to give preference to this group.

NurseCubanitaRN2b, BSN, RN · Feb 28, 2011

Yes, it must be clinicals in concurrent with theory. Clinical rotations are clinical rotations whether it be completed in concurrent with theory or after the theory portion is completed. What difference does it make when the clinicals are completed? As long as they are completed before sitting for NCLEX. Completing clinicals in concurrent with theory doesn't make someone a "better" nurse.

From what I've found out from speaking with different posters on here. It does seem like it is a pick and choose which RN programs the BRN will accept. How can the BRN justify allowing applicants with substandard clinical rotations permission to take NCLEX when portions of their programs don't meet the Nurse Practice Act requirements? How can the BRN justify allowing applicants who didn't complete a peds and ob rotation permission before graduation from their program permission to take the NCLEX? How can the BRN justify their decision to allow applicants who had clinical/theory instructors who have never worked as a RN take the NCLEX? The state of CA requires that instructors of in state schools must have experience as a RN and portions of that can be waived with a MSN or something like that. The BRN is stating that schools must be equivalant or exceed that of CAs minimim requirements. It's obvious these out of country schools DON'T meet the minimum requirements. Don't get me wrong, those who are lacking in the peds and ob rotations should be granted the opportunity to make up that portion. But Excelsior College graduates should be allowed the same opportunity to complete clinical rotations in areas that they are missing. Graduates from those schools are allowed to take the NCLEX in CA with no problem but you have Excelsior graduates who were taught by experienced nurses who can't even endorse into CA. Some of these graduates have clinical preceptorships prior to graduation but they still can't even endorse into CA because they graduated from Excelsior College. I'm sorry but until I can see proof otherwise, I will still believe it is a political game.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 9, 2011

After reading the above posts, I see 2 separate issues that are totally unrelated: one being Excelsior, the other being IEN's.

1. California is clear about the reasoning that led to the decision regarding Excelsior grads including details of court proceedings which finally upheld the BRN's decision. These are all in the public domain. Excelsior's website also clearly informs prospective students about state BON's across the 50 states that their AD in Nursing graduates have obstacles in getting licensed. It's up to the prospective nursing student as a consumer of higher education to make informed decisions regarding their future.

For the record, California's BRN have accepted out-of-state nursing degrees from institutions that follow similar standards set forth by the board including degrees from state funded community colleges and universities as well as many other private institutions with "traditional" model of instruction and face to face clinical experiences with qualified nursing faculty.

2. The BRN in California does its own credentials evaluation for IEN's and I've read how Philippine nursing programs have been tossed around in these posts. There is a standard curriculum for the BSN that is followed by nursing schools in the Philippines. As it stands on paper, the curriculum meets California's requirements because the 4-year curriculum does provide didactic and concurrent clinical experiences across the lifespan. I am not disputing the fact that there are many substandard nursing schools in the Philippines some with poor clinical facilities for nursing instruction and/or unqualified faculty members. I am also not disputing the fact that graduates of these schools have been deemed qualified to sit for the NCLEX-RN by the BRN.

Though it is expected that documents submitted by foreign nursing schools during the application process are truthful and accurate, the reality of the matter is that there are probably some schools that just sign off on misrepresented information on their documents. What the concerned public needs to do is instead of tying this issue with the "unfair" treatment of Excelsior graduates, why not pressure the BRN to be extra vigilant in reviewing IEN educational credentials? Other states are using third-party entities like CGFNS to outsource the credentialing process to an agency that has more experience with international nursing programs. That is an option California can use especially since the state is admittedly cash-strapped and likely have very little personnel support to thoroughly evaluate each applicant.

sasyone · Mar 13, 2011

CA does utilize CGFNS when needed however, CGFNS does not give the exact details CA is looking for. CGFNS will state what the program is equivalent to in the US and gives a full educational report however, that same report is on the transcripts that the BRN receives.

IF CA used CGFNS exclusively like some other states, online schools would be accepted as CGFNS does not distinguish whether a school is online or distance learning. They give a "general" report which may be used by ALL states but all states don't have the same requirements. CGFNS does not do a state specific report.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 13, 2011

ca does utilize cgfns when needed however, cgfns does not give the exact details ca is looking for. cgfns will state what the program is equivalent to in the us and gives a full educational report however, that same report is on the transcripts that the brn receives.
if ca used cgfns exclusively like some other states, online schools would be accepted as cgfns does not distinguish whether a school is online or distance learning. they give a "general" report which may be used by all states but all states don't have the same requirements. cgfns does not do a state specific report.

i am not familar with the fact that ca does "consult" or seek input from cgfns as you implied. if it is indeed happening, then ca is paying the bill for the cgfns' service which is expensive. the ca brn website states that they accept cgfns documents on an optional basis, it is not mandatory for each ien applicant as far as i know. the other states who do use cgfns on every applicant from a foreign nursing program always require the applicant to pay cgfns directly for the services they provide so the state doesn't foot the expensive bill. you mentioned the full educational report by cgfns - that's true, cgfns offers a basic report used in the states that require this type of report. however, cgfns can also provide a state-specific report based on the requirements set forth by the board in the specific state. for examply, ny requires cgfns to provide a focused report on each ien applicant based on ny state education dept's requirements for rn licensure and calls it cvs-ny. i have no vested interest in cgfns nor am i particularly fond of their services. they have been a source of headaches for ien's because they are very slow in processing applications. all i'm saying is that as cash-strapped as ca is right now, it is probably best for ca to use an outside source for verification of ien credentials to ensure that each ien applicant meets educational requirements set forth by ca. there are probably other third-party credentialling services out there, i am just more familiar with cgfns.

ps - i am not aware of any online nursing schools in the philippines. if you know of one, do you mind telling me which ones they are?

sasyone · Mar 22, 2011

PS - I am not aware of any online nursing schools in the Philippines. If you know of one, do you mind telling me which ones they are?

CA definitely does not pay the applicant's bill to CGFNS. Just to clarify, the person I was responding to was discussing LVN not RN. (just wanted to make that clear).

Online distance---Kennedy, Paramedical and Technical are two that come to mind.

When a person comes to CA applying for LVN with foreign education, they are considered applying through equivalency. No such thing as an accredited foreign nursing program in CA. They may be approved by that Board, but not universally "accredited". Speaking for LVN in CA since I worked there many years ago and it's the same according to my friend; CGFNS is used when they cannot determine if the degree is equivalent to one in the US. Each country has there own wording (Russia or Ukraine--can't remember--they call it medical sister). What the heck is a medical sister in the US? CGFNS says equivalent to ADN in the US. The LVN Board then requires minimum hours in certain areas and that's the part CGFNS cannot do for the Board. When it comes to the RN Board, I couldn't say. Another reason for CGFNS, the application will say a nursing program but when you look at the classes, they look much different. Have the applicant go to CGFNS, CGFNS comes back and tells the Board it's equivalent to a doctor of medicine degree and not nursing. Some transcripts don't have the word nursing in any of their courses so off to CGFNS they go. Since the State of CA LVN Board only has jurisdiction to accredite CA schools, it is not their job to determine the content of all foreign schools which is why the need for CGFNS. When I was there, CGFNS was the only one that requested transcripts directly from the school. Some other credentialing services accepted opened transcripts from the applicants. Very unofficial and not acceptable.

Vicki29 · Mar 22, 2011

Juan,

Your post is so interesting and insightful What is CGFNS?

Thanks.