What is your "wash out" rate?

Nursing Students SRNA

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Howdy all,

Looking at some posts both in this forum and in the PRE-CRNA forum, I'm interested to know what the "wash out" rate is at your, or other, schools? What rate do you think is fair?

Part of the reason I ask is this....lots of nursing schools (regular BSN or ADN schools) are pulling from generally the same group of large applicants. Some schools wash out 5% of their students, some wash out 90% of their students (this is a local survey in the Houston area).

The only way these programs are monitored by the Texas Board is their pass rate on the NCLEX, so if they take in 100 students, fail 99 of them, and the one that graduates passes the NCLEX, the school gets a good review.

How do you feel about CRNA programs?

What is a "good" or acceptable wash out rate?

I think that a school should be forced to tell a student if the school has a higher than average wash out rate, because, on the whole, most applicants are nearly uniform between schools, and a high wash out rate would indicate to me that the school has the problem, not the student.

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Specializes in ER/ICU, CCRN, SRNA (class of 2010).

In my experience you can not compare RN programs to CRNA programs. RN programs are less selective of who they take, RN programs have less meaningful data about their applicants to decide who will be a successful candidate; in my RN class we started with 110 students and graduated 65. Everyone I speak to seems to state similar stats.

All the CRNA programs I spoke with have a greater then 90% success rate. If you think about it, RN programs widdle down the numbers a great deal so that those that survive and aspire to APN status will most likely be able to achieve it if they possess the drive.

IMHO, if you can achieve your RN you can achieve what ever APN title you wish if you put your mind to it, but you have to achieve your RN first.

-Smiley

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Specializes in ICU, currently in Anesthesia School.

Totally agree with smiley.

CRNA programs spend a great deal of time and money in both selection and retention of students. (that's why it is so hard to get in)

No anesthesia program wants to see any student fail- it looks bad for the school and the faculty, but you can't force the students to WANT it and study hard for it.

As an aside to all those wannabe's-and I'm sure smiley would agree- You must absolutely WANT/DESIRE/NEED to breathe/eat/sleep anesthesia for the better part of two to three years. Ain't no fakin' it at the head of the bed.;)

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I'm glad that both of you have done research and have knowledge in that area.

Although I am not yet a SRNA, I think a wash out rate of over 25% would be extreme, and 15% would be pushing it.

I have looked into two schools, one has a washout rate of 0-10% on any given year. Another has a wash out rate of 33%. The one with the higher wash out rate actually appears to pride themselves on it.

I am of the opinion that, generally, those who are accepted (matriculate) to CRNA school are almost homogeneous, thus, as I stated earlier, that (a high wash out rate) indicates a problem with the program, not the student(s).

If you were intereviewing/looking at schools, what wash out rate number would alarm you?

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Specializes in ICU, currently in Anesthesia School.
I'm glad that both of you have done research and have knowledge in that area.

Although I am not yet a SRNA, I think a wash out rate of over 25% would be extreme, and 15% would be pushing it.

I have looked into two schools, one has a washout rate of 0-10% on any given year. Another has a wash out rate of 33%. The one with the higher wash out rate actually appears to pride themselves on it.

I am of the opinion that, generally, those who are accepted (matriculate) to CRNA school are almost homogeneous, thus, as I stated earlier, that (a high wash out rate) indicates a problem with the program, not the student(s).

If you were intereviewing/looking at schools, what wash out rate number would alarm you?

Your opinion and generalization would be wrong. The classes are far from homogeneous. Every program selects what it thinks is the best person for it's program. Variety is truly the spice of life and each program reflects that. Mine has varied experience levels and units from which that experience was gained. There is also variety in ethnicities and geographic "homes". All of this in a small sample.

As for strictly viewing percentages, you absolutely must take into account class size. 30% of 150 (Texas wesleyan) is a loss of 45 students. Large, yes, but not prohibitive if you are in the majority that graduate. Now, 30% loss of my class would not make the program financially solvent, making the graduation rate for my class 0% should the loss occur.

So then the question should be put to any prospective program is this:

What are the first time pass rates on boards for your graduates? Any program director should be able to give you that number without a pause. Good programs should be able to say 99-100%.

If you are looking in texas, PM me and I will be happy to discuss specific programs.

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Specializes in ER/ICU, CCRN, SRNA (class of 2010).

It really depends on the size of the class, but greater then 10% would get my attention.

That being said, I believe in my ability to see this through. I feel I would be able to pass any program and believe I am not a marginal applicant, and therefore if the program wishes to accept applicants with less the desirable abilities that is their prerogative and unfortunately for the applicants their money and time. I hope that does not come across as arrogant, but all applicant should assess themselves and decide if they have what it takes to become a CRNA. You should have absolute faith in your ability, most of the time;)

-Smiley

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Specializes in ICU, currently in Anesthesia School.

:yeahthat:

Smiley- do your best to keep that attitude through school! Trust me that faith will be shaken. I came in cocky, and was promptly informed of how much I don't know. (And rightly so.) Sometimes, I am amazed that I am allowed to dress myself, let alone give anesthesia. ;)

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Hah,

Great replies all! Well let me say that, though perhaps not totally homogeneous, I still hold the opinion that those who matriculate are faily homogeneous, meaning that, by the supposed predictors, they are going to do well in a CRNA program. These predictors include prior GPA, GRE score, and experience. My suspicion is that many/most schools would have very similar data regarding their first year student's application data.

The previous statement about pass rates on the boards IS a valid question, however, in my mind I wonder..."If you have a 33% wash out rate, what percentage of those whom were unable to complete your program could have finished someone else's program, and then passed the boards?"

My guess is that well over 75% of those who fail one program could graduate in another and pass the boards.

If you have a 45% wash out rate, and a 99% board passing rate, and another school has a 5% wash out rate and a 99% board passing rate, what does that say about you/your programs ability to select those who will succeed?

This raises another question...how subjective/objective is your grading/evaluation?

The real end point is trying to fish out schools that have systemic problems with them. Having gone through a lot of education, and frequently speaking with those who have, as well as those in education, I, like others posted above, feel confident in my ability to succeed in a program, provided it is fair.

I wonder if schools with high wash out rates are fair. Are their evaluation methods totally subjective? Can you wash out if you get onto someones "bad side"?

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Specializes in ER/ICU, CCRN, SRNA (class of 2010).
:yeahthat:

Smiley- do your best to keep that attitude through school! Trust me that faith will be shaken. I came in cocky, and was promptly informed of how much I don't know. (And rightly so.) Sometimes, I am amazed that I am allowed to dress myself, let alone give anesthesia. ;)

Expecting a few bumps in the road, I always expect that as part of school and the pimping process. I remember the director of my program saying during the interview that we would all be at the bottom of the food chain and will not even know how to place a bp cuff properly or ekg leads for that matter, "So, get over being top dog on the unit and get use to knowing nothing"

-Smiley

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You can also look at this on a global level. There is a publication by the American Association of Colleges of Nursing that looks at all graduate nursing programs. The 2006 data shows 2,793 students and 844 graduates. Considering that most programs are two years long this would imply that there should be 1396 graduates per year leading to a 60% graduation rate.

There are several reasons that this may not be completely accurate. The number of programs are increasing which would lead to more first year students which would increase the graduation rate. There are only 53 programs listed so less than 1/2 of the accredited programs are listed here. There are a number of reasons that a CRNA program would not be a AACN member including being in a college that does not offer an MSN. On the other hand there is no reason to imply that the population of non AACN programs is any different than the population of AACN programs. Realistically the number you really care about is the number of students that become certified as CRNAs. AANA should have this information. In my opinion this should be published for all programs to allow the student to make informed decisions.

David Carpenter, PA-C

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Specializes in SRNA.

I'm trying to get into this new SRNA forum but this question really belongs into the pre-crna section. It would be great to think of allnurses as someplace to discuss something other than which school to choose, how to get in and how to get around the minimum academic requirements.

-S

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Though this discussion may be interesting to those wanting to get into school, it really isn't applicable to them because they are not there yet, and thus couldn't answer the question(s)?

The question basically being...do you think your school is fair?

Do you think the grading is objective or subjective?

While I have also read thread after thread of "which school(s) should I apply to" and "Is my GPA high enough"

I'm not sure I have read the same threads you have on "how to get around the minimum academic requirements"

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