US demand for Filipino nurses declining - educator

suzanne4, RN · Aug 28, 2007

What was happening a year ago in the US just does not apply now. Things have changed drastically.

pinoy_guy · Aug 28, 2007

one site that comes to mind was santa barbara last year, seven or so just walked after they had their green cards in hand, and for no other reason than they wanted more money. they actually had a very good contract. santa barbara used to be one that would petition, but they are not doing that anymore.

this case sounds familiar.

7 filipino rns walked from their contracts almost at the same time, right after they received their green cards in the mail.

response was swift: the hr director stopped petitioning for filipino rns.

no ifs, ands, or buts.

the rns in the hiring pipeline for that hospital were abandoned. had to start from square one.

this is why i am not happy with rns walking from their contracts just to get more money. some i've talked to said "it's not my problem. i have my green card. i have to think of my future."

what about the other filipino rns still in the philippines earning $7 per day?

what about their future?

sadly, this was not an isolated case. i have heard of other similar cases in california. (and new york city.)

let's bring back our palabra de honor (word of honor).

if you sign it, honor it.

do not weasel your way out of the contract because of trumped up reasons.

when it's so transparent that the main reason is money.

crossbow · Aug 29, 2007

this case sounds familiar.
7 filipino rns walked from their contracts almost at the same time, right after they received their green cards in the mail.
response was swift: the hr director stopped petitioning for filipino rns.
no ifs, ands, or buts.
the rns in the hiring pipeline for that hospital were abandoned. had to start from square one.
this is why i am not happy with rns walking from their contracts just to get more money. some i've talked to said "it's not my problem. i have my green card. i have to think of my future."
what about the other filipino rns still in the philippines earning $7 per day?
what about their future?
sadly, this was not an isolated case. i have heard of other similar cases in california. (and new york city.)
let's bring back our palabra de honor (word of honor).
if you sign it, honor it.
do not weasel your way out of the contract because of trumped up reasons.
when it's so transparent that the main reason is money.

bravo!!! exactly.

how would those that have walked away, feel that it was they that were left to dry in the pipeline?

someone get the names of these people...

Joe LI · Aug 29, 2007

Has somebody in here ever heard of buying out a contract when they no longer want to finish it?
Those nurses you claimed to have walked from their contracts after receiving their green card ---may have walked from their contracts--but you know very well that there is always a penalty for breaching such contracts.
Direct Hire, agencies name it-- they dont just make a deal without getting their fair share of money. Once the nurse breaches his contract, he is very much entitled to pay its corresponding penalty.
Why force oneself to work in an environment that is of no good when the grass is greener on the other side?
Direct hire, agencies and nurses breaching their contracts: They are all in a WIN-WIN SITUATION.

I actually just registered to respond to this statement.

By way of background, I work for a US agency which recruits directly for NYC, MD and other hospitals, in Korea and the Phils. All direct hire. Have been doing this for several years and have seen all kinds of situations. Love my job and like helping people. I am NOT here to solicit, only to chime in from the agency/employer side.

We, nor the client, NEVER want to get money from a nurse, in any shape or form. To be frank, the penalty clause is usually higher than the fee we earn, so from a monetary viewpoint it would be better if people just walked away from their contracts. But that is not the business we are in, not the promises candidates made to us and the client, and leaves the client with one less nurse than they anticipated having on their staff just a week earlier. It is only a win situation for the nurse who "bought" a green card by using the hospital and the agency.

We have not had many people walk away/fail their probationary period, but of those who did walk they did so on day one, and it becomes painfully obvious that they NEVER intended to work at the client; paying the penalty was also not a problem for some reason either. Those that did not work out otherwise were generally for attitude and not so much experience, language or otherwise. Keep in mind these are direct hires at union facilities in NYC so the pay, conditions etc. are comparable to anywhere else in the area and often much higher.

And make no mistake, when a Filipino or a Korean (for example) creates such a situation, that feeling does extend to others of similary citizenship...unfortunate as it may be.

I enjoy this site and visit for my own education and to keep current. But felt I had to respond. Please do not ask me about my specific firm etc. as I respect the format of this forum (though I do respectfully withhold my right to disagree with certain opinions!).

pinoy_guy · Aug 30, 2007

how would those that have walked away, feel that it was they that were left to dry in the pipeline?

i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."

i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.

some acquaintances got far worse.

they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.

the interviewer told them to go home.

later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.

can you imagine the situation?

they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.

much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.

the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.

the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.

the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.

these are all investments.

now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.

of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.

does this scenario sound familiar?

now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.

stage 1: excitement & joy
they'll be so happy at getting $23 per hour.
"can you imagine? $23 per hour! that's p1,081 per hour! $184 for 8 hours! p8,648 for 1 duty! i'm so happy! i'm so blessed! $47,840 in one year means i'll have p2,248,480 in one year without even doing ot! i'll be a millionaire!!!"

stage 2: dissatisfaction (about the time they get their green cards)
"the hospital is exploiting me! imagine, my co-workers are getting $25 per hour! that's $2 per hour! $16 per day! $4,160 per year! p195,520! the hospital is stealing from me!"

and this is for a $2 difference.

the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.

$10,400 per year. p488,800.

almost half a million pesos.

but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.

stage 3: self-justification and rationalization
"i know my rights! this is a human rights violation! everybody has the right to work where he/she wants! i won't stand for this abuse of my human rights!"

then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.

for the [color=sienna]ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.

previously.

petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.

for the [color=sienna]buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.

it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.

petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.

for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.

if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.

that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.

just for the loss of 1 rn.

it is not a "win-win situation."

the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.

my point is, do the right thing.

if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.

do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.

i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.

it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.

jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.

crossbow · Aug 30, 2007

bravo!! bravo!!! well put, pinoy guy, well said!!

whatever happened to the professional that always honor a contract?

just because one is getting $2 or $3 less than the one already working here that doesn't mean that the employer did not invest in time, money and effort in getting them.

1. into the country

2. settling them into the country

besides, what $2 difference temporarily when your reputation as a professional is at stake?

pinoy guy, don't the ship jumpers realize that when they first come into the country can be compared to going into someone else's house and invited to dinner for the first time? they are considered guests in that house and they should act accordingly. they will be squeezing in with the usual other people in that dining table or even depriving some of their usual spot on the table. jumping ship would be like

eating a sumptous meal at that table with your gracious hosts and then leaving without even saying goodbye?

i guess professionalism is not taught in a professional school anymore.

i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."
i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.
some acquaintances got far worse.
they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.
the interviewer told them to go home.
later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.
can you imagine the situation?
they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.
much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.
the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.
the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.
the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.
these are all investments.
now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.
of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.
does this scenario sound familiar?
now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.
and this is for a $2 difference.
the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.
$10,400 per year. p488,800.
almost half a million pesos.
but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.
then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.
for the ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.
previously.
petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.
for the buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.
it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.
petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.
for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.
if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.
that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.
just for the loss of 1 rn.
it is not a "win-win situation."
the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.
my point is, do the right thing.
if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.
do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.
i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.
it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.
jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.

great_jaspah · Sep 1, 2007

very well put. thank you.

i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."
i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.
some acquaintances got far worse.
they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.
the interviewer told them to go home.
later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.
can you imagine the situation?
they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.
much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.
the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.
the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.
the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.
these are all investments.
now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.
of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.
does this scenario sound familiar?
now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.
and this is for a $2 difference.
the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.
$10,400 per year. p488,800.
almost half a million pesos.
but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.
then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.
for the ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.
previously.
petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.
for the buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.
it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.
petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.
for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.
if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.
that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.
just for the loss of 1 rn.
it is not a "win-win situation."
the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.
my point is, do the right thing.
if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.
do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.
i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.
it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.
jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.

crumvy · Sep 2, 2007

yah, there are lots of filipinos here who didn't finish their contract for some reasons ( others have good reasons but others have not ) and we can't blame this hospitals not to hire filipino nurses anymore because it's not a joke to petition 1 nurse it is very costly for them according to my employer they paid $8,000 or more for 1 nurse only how about if they have families... But I am wondering why they can do this, wherein during our embassy interview we have to sign a waiver i guess, that we need to proceed and work to the agency or hospital who petitined us if not we can be deported...

pinoy_guy · Sep 3, 2007

it is only a win situation for the nurse who "bought" a green card by using the hospital and the agency.

exactly.

we have not had many people walk away/fail their probationary period, but of those who did walk they did so on day one, and it becomes painfully obvious that they never intended to work at the client; paying the penalty was also not a problem for some reason either.

suzanne mentioned something about this in a few of her posts. from the nyc case, it was mentioned that the rn wanted out of the contract as soon as he set foot on us soil.

those that did not work out otherwise were generally for attitude and not so much experience, language or otherwise.

can you elaborate on the attitude?

keep in mind these are direct hires at union facilities in nyc so the pay, conditions etc. are comparable to anywhere else in the area and often much higher.

i would advise rns to work in hospitals with unions.

speaking from experience.

and make no mistake, when a filipino or a korean (for example) creates such a situation, that feeling does extend to others of similary citizenship...unfortunate as it may be.

agree.

pinoy_guy · Sep 3, 2007

whatever happened to the professional that always honor a contract?

to be objective, there are legitimate cases wherein rns are exploited. for example, being put in a med tele unit with 1:4 ratio and being given 6 patients.

however, if the rn signs a contract for ltc facility with the understanding that he/she will be taking care of 10 to 15 patients, i don't think he/she can use that ratio as reason to jump ship when he/she knew the ratio even before leaving philippine soil.

just because one is getting $2 or $3 less than the one already working here that doesn't mean that the employer did not invest in time, money and effort in getting them.
1. into the country
2. settling them into the country

there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

that kind of service has to be paid, and $2 to $3 per hour for 1 to 2 years is, in my opinion, a good trade off.

if the rn didn't sign that contract, there's little chance for him/her to get to the us any other way.

besides, what $2 difference temporarily when your reputation as a professional is at stake?

i usually hear "i have to think about my future." as the rationale for breaking contracts.

pinoy guy, don't the ship jumpers realize that when they first come into the country can be compared to going into someone else's house and invited to dinner for the first time? they are considered guests in that house and they should act accordingly. they will be squeezing in with the usual other people in that dining table or even depriving some of their usual spot on the table. jumping ship would be like
eating a sumptous meal at that table with your gracious hosts and then leaving without even saying goodbye?

that's an apt analogy, but sadly the ship jumpers seem to think they're justified in grabbing and running.

i guess professionalism is not taught in a professional school anymore.

i taught it.

the thing is, there are lots of nursing students who do not have the heart of a nurse.

they have the heart for the dollar, and it taints everything.

but i am wondering why they can do this, wherein during our embassy interview we have to sign a waiver i guess, that we need to proceed and work to the agency or hospital who petitined us if not we can be deported...

exactly.

they should start with the deporting to show they're serious.

if there's intent to defraud, the green card was obtained on false premises.

nrswnabee · Sep 3, 2007

my point is, Do The Right Thing.

if you think the Salary being offered is low, walk away.

do not sign while planning to Buy Out the Contract later.

----------------

thanks, pinoy_guy, for posting a dreadful truth, yet, very useful.

i'm blown away by how many pinoy rns lose sense of what is right when they start earning dollars. their judgment blunts with faulty comparisons (of course one gets lesser pay due to the facility's sponsorship/petitioning efforts..nothing's for free.) all of a sudden, they think of themselves as hapless victims all in the name of $3 dollars less pay!

can we be more realistic? if you get paid in dollars, you also spend in dollars so converting to pesos is not necessarily the smartest way to decide if you're getting enough. the u.s. is not paradise or an escape from what the philippines can (or cannot) offer. people work hard to earn their pay. you can also get conned here and like anywhere, not all of those sharks get caught. a signed contract is BINDING so it is BEST to CLEAR YOUR MIND before sigining it. Be extra CAREFUL, take time to study, seek information and learn from those in the know. Don't let your emotions and your preconceived notions get the best of you.

suzanne4, RN · Sep 4, 2007

Average fee that an agency takes is $5 per hour USand this a very well known fact. Contracts are a legally binding document and there are penalty fees that need to be paid when the nurse walks.

If the nurse did their homework before they got so happy that an agency was interested in them, then they would not be any issues at all. No agency works for free, they have to get their money one way or another.

And average number of patients that a nurse cares for in the LTC setting is 30 to 60, not what is posted above. They only wish for that ratio.