Suggestions for HOW TO FIND A JOB

Bug Out, BSN · Nov 4, 2009

I would NEVER EVER work as a CNA once you are a RN or LPN.

You are still legally liable as a RN or LPN even if you are working as a CNA...places you at a very high risk.

Hoozdo, ADN · Nov 5, 2009

I would NEVER EVER work as a CNA once you are a RN or LPN.
You are still legally liable as a RN or LPN even if you are working as a CNA...places you at a very high risk.

I don't even think that is legal in AZ. I seem to recall reading that on a State Board of Nursing document.

Lisa From Maui · Nov 6, 2009

hoozdo: i really value getting accurate information, from the source, so i wrote an email to the arizona state board of nursing.

i asked: are there any state laws - or azbn rules - or any regulations that say - an rn or lpn cannot work as a cna? i am asking because - new grad rns and lpns can't find jobs as rns and lpns in this economy. i'm wondering if new grad rns and lpns can work as cnas.

the azbofn answered: an rn or lpn of course can perform the any cna function; however, unless the rn or lpn has a cna certificate, they cannot use the title of cna.

so, to be clear, according to az state law, and azbofn, yes, a new grad lpn or rn can work as a cna.

keep in mind

-- a company (like banner inc.) or a facility (like a stand-alone nursing home) might have a rule/policy that says they won't hire an lpn or rn into a cna position. that's their own company policy.

-- a nursing union may have rules/policies that they won't allow an rn or lpn to work as a cna. (from what i've heard, unions are much larger in other states, and smaller in arizona.) that would be the union's policy, and would affect any facilities the union works with.

hoozdo, i'm glad you asked the question. glad i took time to find the answer. -- lisa ;-)

Bug Out, BSN · Nov 6, 2009

"yes, a new grad lpn or rn can work as a cna....as long as they pay for the class, take the written and practicle exam."

any new grad is liable as a rn or lpn reguardless of their current working status as cna, very dangerous waters for a new grad to enter.

Lisa From Maui · Nov 6, 2009

Bug Out:

Let's say a new grad RN or LPN interviews with a Director of Nursing (DON) at a long-term care (LTC) facility (nursing home) -- and the new grad and DON both agreed -- that while the new grad was working as a CNA, she would be learning, learning, learning -- and be promoted to an LPN or RN job within 6 months...

The new grad worked as a CNA for 3-6 months, learning the patients, meeting other staff members, learning the facilty's rules & regulations, thoroughly learning about passing meds (although not passing them), learning about which med each patient is on, learning about tube feeds, learning when and how to chart, etc.

How is this dangerous water? How can an LPN or RN put her license in jeopardy by feeding people, giving them baths, checking blood glucose, taking vital signs, etc. Give some REAL examples of what might happen, please....

Bug Out, BSN · Nov 7, 2009

Lets say a RN is working as a CNA. She has a pt that is nose diving, she reports her findings to her Nurse as a CNA should do.

BUT as a Registered Nurse herself what actions should she take? Does she intervene on a RN level as a RN should (and is legally required) or will she default to the LPN assigned to that pt?

As a CNA they are not expected to fully assess nor recognize subtle s/s of problems. Now as a RN she will recognize those issues, does she only report or intervene? What would a lawyer say?

Will a lawyer see her as CNA or as a RN? What will the BON see her as?

Does that RN default to her LPN?

Being a RN she can dress and care for wounds and will be asked to do so...for example putting on creams on a wound in the peri area. Now does she do it because she is a RN or does she act as the CNA and not do it? Can she even legally do it? There will be many temptations, "Oh can you put in this Foley, your a Nurse right?...Can you dress this wound, your a Nurse right?" Can she? Will she? Should she?

A CNA is shielded somewhat because they do not have the education nor license to identify and recognize subtle s/s of issues. Now as a CNA/Nurse that person will be held to the full standard that any other Nurse is held to. Without the experience to know when and how to intervene and act upon the information they have assessed that new grad can bring themselves into very dangerous waters.

A Nurse is held to a much MUCH higher standard than a CNA and a RN is held to a higher standard than a LPN. It is hard to maintain those standards when you are placed into a position where it is typically not expected.

aztova · Nov 7, 2009

I would never ever work as a CNA after I became an LPN or RN simply because being a CNA SUCKS! :)

Lisa From Maui · Nov 13, 2009

dear aztova,

as i wrote initially, i was talking about new grads. if you worked as a cna in a facility, after getting your lpn or rn license, you would have a much easier time getting promoted to an lpn position at that same facility. to me, that's the smart thing to do.

dear bugout,

no one wants to spend $$ to train a new grad. so, new grads have few options.

do you continue with school, get a bsn? yes, but what if you can't get in?

do you move outside of phoenix to find a new grad program? what if you do move, then realize you're not getting the training they promised. you're working with poor training & little guidance. that's high risk.

do you wait until new grad programs are available? that could be a year, two years, three years. by then, you've forgotten 75% of what you've learned in nursing school. that's high risk.

do you take a job as an lpn or rn at a facility that doesn't give you training? that just throws you in, and sees if you sink or swim? that's high risk.

without proper training, all of these options are high risk, but so is driving down phoenix freeways. and i do that every day.

what would the lawyers say? they get a nice house, nice car, nice clothes, when they prove that people are all screwed up. the lawyers would try their best to tear me apart.

i understand where you are coming from. i understand what you're saying. in this job market, i just don't see any other options for new grads.

knowing what i know now, if i had to do it over again, i would go to an experienced don and ask her if i could work as a cna while i was getting trained. i would ask her how to protect my license, and would do what she told me to do. i just don't see any other options. -- lisa ;-)

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2009

A U-Haul is the answer if a new grad cannot get an LPN or RN job locally. As far as moving for a job and risk - you've got to take some risks. No risk = no gain.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2009

Do you move outside of Phoenix to find a new grad program? What if you do move, then realize you're not getting the training they promised. You're working with poor training & little guidance. That's high risk.

You muddle through and survive as tens of thousands of new grad nurses have before you.

Lisa,

I think you are minimizing the role conflict issues and potential legal problems. Also, the scenario you set out about training, for example, learning med pass without passing any meds - these are unrealistic and asking for a boundary to blur.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2009

knowing what i know now, if i had to do it over again, i would go to an experienced don and ask her if i could work as a cna while i was getting trained. i would ask her how to protect my license, and would do what she told me to do. i just don't see any other options. -- lisa ;-)

protecting your license is not the don's priority or focus. you cannot just do what she tells you to do, regarding your license. you have to protect your own license. a wise nurse here has a signature line that says, "being a good nurse and good employee are not necessarily the same thing." this is another issue of conflicting roles and agendas.