Success stories of using attorney vs IPN

Ginarn14 · Jul 15, 2022

I am currently in ipn and dealing with some issues. Want to hire an attorney. Any suggestions?

catsmeow1972, BSN, RN · Jul 25, 2022

Yes! Get an attorney. The expense of having a relationship with a good one. If we are talking Florida, there 2 big firms that specialize in this stuff. TOS says I can't name them but I had one on the back burner for a large part of my contract. My regret is that I did not hire them sooner. I was subject to laziness, and incompetence that created issues that would have not happened had I had an attorney to speak for me.

They come in handy when IPN tries to mess with you, invent a new policy or try to hold you to stipulations that are not explicitly stated in your contract.

The expense is small when compared to the hell they appear to have the freedom to rain down upon people.

solarex · Aug 3, 2022

On 7/15/2022 at 8:33 AM, Ginarn14 said:

I am currently in ipn and dealing with some issues. Want to hire an attorney. Any suggestions?

I'm going to go a different direction and give you an example of why I would tell you, NO, do not get an attorney. For starters, you wrote dealing with issues? That could literally mean 1000 things and tells the people reading this almost nothing, so it's hard to give an opinion, but for starters, when dealing with the Board, for some reason or another, the common theme echoed by nurses who have NEVER dealt with the Board just simply echoes what they hear and that is...."Get a Lawyer"! Fact is, NO, do NOT always get a lawyer.

You are posting in the recovery board, so I'm assuming you have a substance abuse issue of some sort. Nurses assume that because they have an attorney, they are automatically shielded from the Board. You aren't. The process might be.....might be smoother, but you aren't shielded. For example, if the Board has Reasonable Suspicion that you have a substance problem, they can and will investigate and your attorney can NOT stop that investigation. If your attorney helps you with the investigation and you come out ahead, the Board can STILL refer you to the Alternative Discipline Program for a Chemical Substance Evaluation. Your attorney can NOT stop this. A Chemical Substance Evaluation is where the Board requires you to undergo an evaluation by psychiatrists and drug testing and they administer you a bunch of tests, of which one will likely be a hair test and likely a nail test (Which can go back to 1 year for drug use). Your attorney can slow this down, but he or she can NOT stop it.

One other thing nurses don't know about. ANYTIME you are prescribed a controlled substance by a provider in the US, that script is in a state database with the name of the drug, your name, the dosage, and the providers name and date. When you undergo a chemical evaluation, the first thing they have already done before you walk in the door, after making the appointment, is check that database. There is no issue with a valid prescription, but if you are one 2 antidepressants, an antianxiety medication, and one pain medication or more in the last year or two, the evaluation team will see it, and that raises questions as to your mental health (for right or wrong, that's how they look at it).

The chemical evaluations are not beatable. If you have a substance abuse or alcohol problem, they find it with testing, evaluation, etc. You can not hide it or beat it. These centers are also one's appointed/authorized by the State Nursing Boards, so guess what, if you are found to have a substance abuse disorder, guess where you get to be treated in the future? At that facility, who will make more money because you are now a patient and required to be there by the State Board, so the chemical evaluations heavily lean to the side of the State Board and if you drink 3 beers weekly, it's considered a substance abuse disorder and the Board has got you.

Here is what I am saying to you. If you have a substance abuse disorder and the Board suspects that you do, then no lawyer in America will beat it. They have got you. No lawyer in America will lesson the consequences or punishment because the punishment is now similar across the country and has become nearly standardized. You will not be able to pass meds for 1 year, so you wil have to work in a place where you can't pass meds for one year, and your boss will have to send in a quarterly report on your status for 3 years, and you will have to check in daily for 3 to 5 years (3 years for alcohol, 5 years for drug) and do random testing. After one year of practice, you will be able to pass meds. After the 5 years are up, your license is no longer on probation. Your license will likely be suspended with stay for the first year, which means you can still practice nursing after completing the required rehab, but you can't mess up or they suspend it to where you can't work at all for one year. This punishment has some minor variances across the country, but it is actually pretty standard in 2022 for all nurses and closely resembles what I wrote abov3.

As for a lawyer.....I repeat, if you have a substance abuse problem and the Board suspect it (a complaint has been made or investigation is underway or you know one is coming), then you WILL have to go for a chemical evaluation at a place authorized by the Board. A lawyer can not stop this. If you actually do have a substance abuse problem, then you can't beat the testing. They will know with 100 percent accuracy and a lawyer can NOT stop this. The punishment I mentioned above is standard if you are found to have a Substance Abuse Disorder and a Lawyer can NOT stop this. So, only you know for sure, but in your own mind, if you know you have a substance abuse problem, then you are wasting 10,000 on a lawyer. They can't help you. They may make you "feel better" as they will be by your side at the State Board Meeting, but they absolutely can't help. The consequences and punishment will be the exact same, except you are now out of 10,000 dollars.

What do I recommend.....if you do have a substance abuse issue and you have obviously been reported to the Board, go immediately to Rehab and complete a PHP 6 week program. During 2 weeks into the Rehab, immediately call your states recovery program (not the Board, but the recovery program which is separte) and get enrolled to where you are all set up when you finish the 6 week PHP program. If you have an investigator with the Board, tell the truth, but don't tell the x rated version. Tell the investigator I have a substance abuse problem and I am in rehab or I am going to rehab and that I'm entering the Nursing Recovery Monitoring Program for my state and say no more. One exception to all of this........if you have falsified a chart at work for diversion where you altered a chart for your own use and they are investigating you for this, then you should get a lawyer here. Diversion of waisted medication is not good of course, but falsifying a chart can get criminal charges brought, so if you ever alterned a chart, think twice about ever admitting this. You are better off saying you diverted for your own personal use by diverting the wasted product that was leftover and never altered a chart. This small subtility can save you from criminal charges. You also never want to admit how many times you used. Boards will try to trap you into giving a number or amount, and you never commit to it. Just say, I have been using for how ever many months and that you didn't keep a running record or amount of use, so you can't say how many times.

Advantages to NOT having a lawyer that you never hear about....

1. If you have a substance abuse issue, the Board will find out. You will go for chemical evaluation and testing that looks back for 1 year in nail tests and you will be found out. A lawyer can not prevent or stop this.

2. Once you are found out, the punishment is the same. The lawyer can't help it.

3. If you admit you have a substance abuse problem, the Board will likely never had you appear before them. They will give you a set of conditions for entering the monitoring program and tell you what they will do such as probation for 5 years, drug testing random for 5 years, reprimand, and you can sign and agree to it, and then never appear before the Board. IF you don't sign and you have a lawyer, he gets the exact same letter from the Board and the punishment will be the exact same, but you are out of 10,000.

4. Not lawyering up is favorable to the Board for substance abuse problems. You are likely going to come out easier than what you would if you had a lawyer.

5. If asked by an investigator if you ever falsely documented a chart, the answer needs to be no. They will ask you how you used? You will tell them you diverted left over wasted medications, but never falsified a chart. If they ask you how many times you diverted, tell them you don't know, that you didn't keep a running record. The Board only needs to know that you are admitting to a substance abuse problem and nothing more, because the punishment is kind of standardized. It's a 3 to 5 year type of program anyway, whether you use drugs daily or one every week.

6. If your issue is for something OUTSIDE of work like a DUI, or criminal or civil issues that are not related to substance abuse, then get a lawyer.

solarex · Aug 3, 2022

One more things about stipulations from the Board. They are pretty clear. If you call in daily and randomly drug test and don't do drugs or alcohol, you are going to be fine. They will tell you how many meetings you need to attend per week for recovery, places you can't work such as home health and possibly no night shifts, and you likely will have a one year no controlled substances allowed. In my opinion, most people who say the Board is "messing with them" deviate from their consent order. Everything the Board does with you for the 3-5 years is in the consent order that you will sign before agreeing to it. If you have a lawyer, they simply mail the same proposed consent order to him or her instead of you and your lawyer then goes over it with you to sign it. A consent order is what nurses who are in recovery with the Board have and the guidelines are clear. I'm telling you this, for every nurse in my opinion across the country who says a lawyer helped them, there are 3 to 4 who will say the lawyer only helped them with peace of mind and anxiety and costing them 10,000 dollars, but that the punishment was the same in the end.

Quickstepper, MSN, RN · Aug 8, 2022

Catsmeow, can I PM you somehow to get some names?