Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Dragonnurse1, ASN, RN · Oct 25, 2009

I too do not feel that healthcare workers should be forced to be vaccinated. I worked with one nurse that got a flu shot years ago when our hospital recommended it. She spent 10 days in the hospital with 2 in ICU.

Individuals are and can be allergic to any part of the vaccine and since one of the versions uses a partial live virus why would anyone be willing to take the medication.

Let us decide, we know our bodies best.

angelausp · Oct 26, 2009

I'm not opposed to getting the vaccine, I just don't think that it is fair to be forced to get it. People have personal and even religious reasons for being opposed to vaccines in general, and in those cases other alternatives should be looked into.

lamazeteacher · Oct 26, 2009

i'm not opposed to getting the vaccine, then be the first to get the flu mist when it becomes available, unless you're traking care of an infant of under 6 months of age i just don't think that it is fair to be forced to get it.
here's the nasty truth: life, is not fair!! otherwise everyone who speeds down the road with you, above the speed limit would get a ticket, too.
people have personal and even religious reasons for being opposed to vaccines in general, and in those cases other alternatives should be looked into.

but that's not you, right? luckily you don't hide behind a phobia or fabricate a religion being against the prevention of disease. :nono:

bmp11 · Oct 26, 2009

I have an autoimmune/connective tissue disease and will NEVER get a flu shot - They contain Mercury and Aluminum anyway and who would put poison in their body knowingly? Why do so many elderly have Alzheimers? Because they are told and/or forced to take the flu shots! No one should ever be told by an employer what to

put into their body!

lamazeteacher · Oct 26, 2009

I have an autoimmune/connective tissue disease and will NEVER get a flu shot - They contain Mercury and Aluminum anyway and who would put poison in their body knowingly? Why do so many elderly have Alzheimers? Because they are told and/or forced to take the flu shots! No one should ever be told by an employer what to put into their body!

You can ask your doctor for thimersol free vaccine. There's no aluminum in any vaccine about which I know .

Are all your cooking pots and implements free of aluminum? What about antiperspirents?

Don't eat or buy prepared pies or other prevooked foods. They're all in aluminum pans, or have been cooked in them. Moderation isn't a bad idea, if you can tolerate small amounts. You might look up the excretion rate of aluminum from the body.....

I hope you see a rheumatologist, preferably at a university setting. :specs:

seaspray700777 · Oct 26, 2009

I know I am just a pre-nursing student yet the posts I am reading has enlightened me to respond. I cant remember who said it but WHY is it just Healthcare workers, yes the greeter at walmart and oh my goodness any clerk at Wal-Mart or any large box store!! Do you know how many people they are in contact with!!! Yes, I realize that health care workers are in contact usually with people that may be more health comprimised but come on...

I havent heard this manatory for Dentists, Phamacists, etc. I wonder why? I will not get the H1N1 shot. My personal choice and living in America I hope this choice does not get taken away by greedy drug companies and overjealous socialists.:imbar P.S. Although I am not a chemist, I know that mercury is really not so great to the body along with whatever else is in the vaccine.

lamazeteacher · Oct 26, 2009

Seaspray 700777:

As a prenursing student, you might look up what other occupations are appropriate for you, with the subjects you already have.

By not taking the H1N1 vaccine (by injection, since you're over 49), you have demonstrated your willingness to infect others and compromise those pregnant women and their unborn babies with whom you occupy 10 square feet around them, when/if you incubate and suffer because of that virus. Playing the odds isn't appropriate with this virus. It's spreading faster than wildfire.

Since you distrust the government's source of preventive substances, you could hardly recommend medications to patients which their doctors want them use.... much less take them, yourself if you become ill. There is a lot we don't know about repercussions of untreated illnesses, but we do know that there are positive results of following treatment regimes - especially for diabetics.

I hope you will avail yourself of the H1N1 vaccine when it becomes available, if only to save others from getting the disease from you. That is the one sure way to tell if someone is suitable to be a professional working with others who are sick.

Lois

P.S. You may thank me some day, when you realise how much better suited you are to do some other kind of work.

TheSquire, DNP, APRN, NP · Oct 27, 2009

I have an autoimmune/connective tissue disease and will NEVER get a flu shot - They contain Mercury and Aluminum anyway and who would put poison in their body knowingly? Why do so many elderly have Alzheimers? Because they are told and/or forced to take the flu shots! No one should ever be told by an employer what to
put into their body!

First, the Mercury in Thimerosol is Ethyl Mercury, which your kidney excretes with no undue side effects to you, the happy flu-shot recipient.

Secondly, if you're that scared of getting Aluminum in your system, I suppose you don't use it in any way during food preparation, either.

Lastly, I'm highly amused at your invoking Alzheimers. The big scare over Thimerosol used to be due to it's supposed connection to Autism. Thimerosol was yanked from childhood vaccines at the early part of this decade due to this unfounded scare, and yet the Autism rates remained unchanged. One wonders what the anti-vaccination crowd will link Thimerosol to after they run out of neurological diseases that begin with the letter 'A'.

Foley6 · Oct 27, 2009

to: lamazeteacher

Patients aren't your employees. They can refuse meds and go AMA.

Foley6: True, but the point IS, shouldn't we all have the same rights???

You are an employee of your facility, and to maintain the position that pays your way, you have an obligation to do what you're told, as long as it doesn't conflict with your rules of licensure or endanger anyone.

Foley6: If your employer jumped off of a bridge, would you go too? Whatever happened to being able to think for yourself? Not endanger anyone?? What about the % of people who will get gillian beret syndrome, or alzheimers, or whatever, from the mercury and God knows what else they put in the vaccine. Normal healthy people will just lie in bed for a few days with the flu, big deal. I have done it lots of times. I would much rather do that than have a lifelong illness that my insurance company would probably not pay for. I do feel bad for those who have other health problems, which would put them at risk for complications from the flu. The other problem I have with this issue is that there is no way to prove if the vaccination will actually work? Look at all the people who get the flu shot every year, and still get the flu. until they can prove that it is safe, and it will work, I cannot support it. Are they going to test people for H1N1 if they get sick AFTER getting the flu shot. I don't think anyone would pay for that. If someone wants the flu shot, fine, but I hope that they are given, and understand the fine print that goes along with it. If they are OK with that, fine. If they are not don't force them.

If you endanger your patients by refusing immunization that gives you (and therefore your patients) protection from catching a lethal disease, that is not consistent with your employment (and your status as a health care professional).

Foley6: the flu a LETHAL disease?

What is clear, is that the vaccine is safer than the disease for 99% of people. What isn't clear, is why you think you can upend your employment, most probably cause infection for yourself and your coworkers, family, and patients, spreading a diosease that's already going like wildfire, and contradict your source of income, becoming a pariah to prove your point!

Foley6: You certainly have the right to your opinion, as do I, but don't believe everything you read, or hear. Many of the people flocking to the ER do not even have the flu. The media is eating this up just like SARS. Remember that? You know, the disease that was going to wipe us all out.

This is where your focus diverges from yourself, to others. That's called maturity.

Foley6: I understand your strong desire to help others, but this is a tough one. It is difficult to see how much of a threat the swine flu REALLY is. If wish everyone could be honest with us, but when will that ever happen.

Also, I do not think it is appropriate to tell a pre-nursing student that they should find another line of work just because they have an opinion that differs from yours. We need more skeptical nurses that don't want to push pills and vaccinations just because the big greedy drug companies want more money. If we had more nurses like this in our profession, we could teach more about health prevention, which is a whole other subject in itself, so I will quit now. Thank you.

Foley6 (RN for 13 years)

Foley6 · Oct 27, 2009

to: lamazeteacher

Patients aren't your employees. They can refuse meds and go AMA.

Foley6: True, but the point IS, shouldn't we all have the same rights???

You are an employee of your facility, and to maintain the position that pays your way, you have an obligation to do what you're told, as long as it doesn't conflict with your rules of licensure or endanger anyone.

Foley6: If your employer jumped off of a bridge, would you go too? Whatever happened to being able to think for yourself? Not endanger anyone?? What about the % of people who will get gillian beret syndrome, or alzheimers, or whatever, from the mercury and God knows what else they put in the vaccine. Normal healthy people will just lie in bed for a few days with the flu, big deal. I have done it lots of times. I would much rather do that than have a lifelong illness that my insurance company would probably not pay for. I do feel bad for those who have other health problems, which would put them at risk for complications from the flu. The other problem I have with this issue is that there is no way to prove if the vaccination will actually work? Look at all the people who get the flu shot every year, and still get the flu. until they can prove that it is safe, and it will work, I cannot support it. Are they going to test people for H1N1 if they get sick AFTER getting the flu shot. I don't think anyone would pay for that. If someone wants the flu shot, fine, but I hope that they are given, and understand the fine print that goes along with it. If they are OK with that, fine. If they are not don't force them.

If you endanger your patients by refusing immunization that gives you (and therefore your patients) protection from catching a lethal disease, that is not consistent with your employment (and your status as a health care professional).

Foley6: the flu a LETHAL disease?

What is clear, is that the vaccine is safer than the disease for 99% of people. What isn't clear, is why you think you can upend your employment, most probably cause infection for yourself and your coworkers, family, and patients, spreading a diosease that's already going like wildfire, and contradict your source of income, becoming a pariah to prove your point!

Foley6: You certainly have the right to your opinion, as do I, but don't believe everything you read, or hear. Many of the people flocking to the ER do not even have the flu. The media is eating this up just like SARS. Remember that? You know, the disease that was going to wipe us all out.

This is where your focus diverges from yourself, to others. That's called maturity.

Foley6: I understand your strong desire to help others, but this is a tough one. It is difficult to see how much of a threat the swine flu REALLY is. If wish everyone could be honest with us, but when will that ever happen.

Also, I do not think it is appropriate to tell a pre-nursing student that they should find another line of work just because they have an opinion that differs from yours. We need more skeptical nurses that don't want to push pills and vaccinations just because the big greedy drug companies want more money. If we had more nurses like this in our profession, we could teach more about health prevention, which is a whole other subject in itself, so I will quit now. Thank you.

Foley6 (RN for 13 years)

Me, SN · Oct 27, 2009

I will not be getting the H1N1 shot this year or ever barring someone placing a gun to my head. And I WOULD give up my license if it were an ultimatum. I was forced to receive the Hepatitis vaccinations in the military when I was young and ignorant. I get the PPDs because I've decided after much reading I'm not in much danger from a PPD. I selectively vaccinate my daughter as well. She does not get flu shots nor will she ever get the chicken pox vaccine. If she were a less healthy child, I MIGHT reconsider depending on the morbidities in question. I've had the flu several times in my life and (frankly, without caring what anyone else's opinion on the matter may be) that I would rather deal with the illness that could come and go than to risk something that may or may not be a lifelong problem.

I actually did see something on the mainstream news about a nurse who cannot perform as a nurse anymore due to a vaccination rxn. I can't remember which vaccine she had taken, but she did have a neurological problem afterward (probably complications from GB). Personally, I am not risking my life for ANYONE I take care of and I do not care if that makes me a bad nurse or not. If the problem lies in communicating this disease to others, China had a great way of dealing with the same problem during the bird flu epidemic...masks for everyone (and not just at the hospitals or health care facilities, either). Perhaps instituting precautions like more sanitizing agents at establishments catering to the public or masks seeing as it is airborne, might help prevent the spread of not just the H1N1 virus, but the seasonal flu as well.

If you want it. Get it. I wouldn't force anyone NOT to. But I don't want it and I don't think I should be threatened with the loss of my livelihood because I choose a different treatment route. Afterall, I AM a client sometimes too and therefore should be given the same autonomy as any other client. I would GLADLY wear the N95 mask instead at all times. I practice excellent hand hygiene and I would think that the CDC would more highly value my near-ritualistic hand washing over my acceptance of a vaccination under forced pretenses...you know, seeing as they taut the frequency and quality of hand washing as being the MOST effective way to prevent the spread of infectious disease.

Kidagora · Oct 27, 2009

A very complicated question and I don't think I have an answer. So I'll fumble my way to a conclusion as I write.

I think as a private party, any employer is well within their constitutional right to define requirements for employment (from a purely libertarian ideology) even though I may disagree with those requirements and however they may infringe upon an individuals desire for employment with that institution. Discrimination, bias, etc. is another subject up for discussion. I don't think it's my place to expect an employer to conform to all my demands nor do I think it's my employers place to expect me to conform to all their demands. That's where negotiation of contract terms comes in. At that point it seems to be an issue between two private parties. If you don't like the terms, walk and find another position (which seems to be what many have expressed). Ethically, I do not think it's is not right to force or coerce someone to contradict their personal beliefs, autonomy, impose risk, or punish them for being who they are. I do think everyone should have the right to refuse someone else for whatever reason be they employee or employer or client.

I understand the perceived benefits of having staff in high risk positions vaccinated and I can see why someone may want to make it mandatory. I think the whole "it's unproven" argument is false. I have not seen anything to suggest this is any less safe than the seasonal flu shots. Scare tactics, urban myths, unfortunate isolated instances, conspiracy theories, and government paranoia appear to have trumped empirical evidence, statistics, case studies, and historical evidence of vaccinations. Maybe someone can give specifics with regard to what vaccinations are/were problematic in the past and cite some sources and stats. I'm curious. I really don't know of any offhand.

Someone posted earlier with a very convincing argument citing hypocrisy in mandating a vaccination but at the same time upholding the patient's bill of rights, ANA code of ethics etc. I agree. But at the same time I wonder about OSHA precautions and the use of protective equipment in any workplace setting (gloves, helmets, coats, glasses, etc.). Is it really that different because you're putting something in your body with one preventative measure and the other you're simply wearing protective gear for the other? Neither is 100% effective but I guess the fact one is a medical treatment makes all the difference. But I think the scare tactics and the culture of individualism blinds us to a more socially responsible answer.

As for vaccinating the public, it would be a governmental mandate for public vaccination which I think is dangerous. Understandable in terms of a serious, deadly epidemic as guidelined by the CDC. But once again as a private party with a small employment base interacting with a large public, I think it makes more sense (to me) to use the limited resources to vaccinate a staff (smaller population) that is in direct contact with infected (larger) population and at risk for greater transmission to immuncompromised patients.

I'm tired of writing now.

That being said, I don't really have an opinion but I understand both sides. Please, don't flame. This a first post and a serious attempt at a thoughtful analysis of a controversial, polemic topic. The key to this whole question is "should". Not "Can H1N1 vaccine be mandatory.." or "Is H1N1 vaccine mandatory...". I don't see a right or wrong answer here. Like most things, it's a matter of perspective.

If I was a hospital director I would be concerned about staff and patient population and say yes.

As a student nurse I am concerned with personal responsibilities, code of ethics, and autonomy and I say NO.