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Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Hello fellow professionals,

May I have your attention please. An allnurses.com user by the name of nursebrandie made a valid point in the emergency nursing subforum that I would like to discuss with all of you. We were discussing the use of paramedics in the ER, and it was mentioned that the two professions were interchangeable. This is alarming to a professional nurse such as myself. We must not give give up our career roles to other specialties. Any of you that do not believe this is an issue, please consider the following:

1. Anesthesia started out being administered by nurses, that's right, nurses...not physicians. Nursing gave this role up to physician anesthesiologists. Yes, we still have the CRNA profession, but now there is a new role out there called the Anesthesiologist Assistant (AA). It is a master's degree program that physicians created to keep the midlevel anesthesia providers under their thumbs. The position pays as well as, if not more than, a nurse anesthetist.

2. Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy started off as subspecialties of nursing. Yes, PT's and OT's were orginally nurses that received specialty training in the activities of PT and OT. But we gave these positions away too and now the PT has become a clinical doctorate degree and the OT has become a master's degree.

3. Midwives originally birthed babies, not physicians. In fact, the first known male physician to witness a live birth dressed up as a woman to see the event, and when it was discovered, he was burned alive at the stake. Yes, we still have nurse midwifery, but it never should have been given to the male physician group. And also look at what CNM's get paid compared to OB/GYN physicians...for pretty much the same job.

4. RN's used to be able to mix drugs in piggybacks for I.V. administration. Now pharmacists have completely taken over that arena too. Why is this important? Well, just this...did you ever need a drug in an emergency situation, like Mannitol, but had to wait for a pharmacist to mix it and you get it back in 30 minutes when you could have mixed it in 5 minutes flat? Look around you...nursing's skill set is being taken away, but our nursing leaders are demanding us to have more education. Why? Nurses aren"t smart enough to use strict aseptic technique to mix drugs in an emergency situation?

5. Why is it that nurses cannot endotracheally intubate except in an ambulance or flight nurse role? Why is it that a paramedic can put in an EJ IV line, central line, or chest tube but nurses cannot except if employed in a flight nurse or ambulance role? Why is it that are profession seems to want us more educated but we have allowed ourselves to become "dumbed down"?

So yes, the idea of paramedics taking over the ER nurse's role is a real threat, and it should not be taken lightly. Paramedics are great to have in the ER...but paramedics are paramedics and nurses are nurses.

Embrace your skill set, and do not allow others to take anything more away from you! You went to school. You learned the skills. You know how to critically think! Nurses are more than just well educated technicians. I am more than a butt wiping, pill pushing, bed making technician. So are all of you.

Keep this in mind as you move through your career. Nurses need to come together, not grow apart if this profession is ever going to be something more.

Mark

Specializes in Peds Cardiology,Peds Neuro,Pedi ER,PICU, IV Jedi.
your experience with er nurses is sad i agree. but people are people and you can see this type of behavior on any nursing unit/facility, etc...dont let these dummies give you a bad impression of er nurses. (besides, she should have made the paramedic put the patient on the pot! that'd probably be the only way an er-paramedic could impress me )

yet another divisive statement. while i respect dinith's opinion, perhaps her choice of words could have been a little nicer. if you ask me to do it...i'm all over it. "make" me do it, and we're going to have a problem.

Specializes in Diabetes ED, (CDE), CCU, Pulmonary/HIV.
Are you sure about this? I may be taking this out of context, but there are more than "a few credits" difference b/w an associate prepared RN and a bachelor's prepared RN. Granted, the nursing education of a BSN may have a few more requirements than an ADN, but the other half of the BSN degree may demand an additional 60 credit hours of general college education.

I already had a baccaulareate degree (BA in English and Secondary Education) when I decided to go to nursing school in Miami, FL. My education was being paid for by a state program designed to help members of workforce who had lost jobs due to conpany downsizing, or to airline closings (PanAm, Eastern, National). I was accepted by an Accelerated BA/BS to BSN program which led to BSN in one intense year., another Accelerated program that led to ASN after one intense year, A BSN program in which I would earn a BSN in 2 years, an ASN program which would lead to associated degree in nurning after 5 semesters.

At that time (1992), I chose the 2 year ASN program for several reasons:

1. It started earlier than the other programs.

2. My house had just been destroyed by Hurricane Andrew, and I thought the program I chose might not be as stressful as the others (WRONG!!)

3. The program that was paying for my classes would not pay for a second bachelor's degree--even though the time to get the 2nd BS/BA was the same, and even though the program would pay for a BS/BA for someone who did not yet have one.

One reason I think the ASN took so long is that all prerequisites (general education and science classes)had to be completed before starting the nursing program. Those prereqs amounted to the two years of classes needed to transfer to a BA/BS program at a 4-year university. Once the nursing classes started, the course load was only 10-12 hours: A nursing theory class and a clinical class each semester, with one or 2 classes such as Pharmacology Math (a 2-hr class) added in.

The college from which I received my BA had a nursing program as well. Students took science and general education courses onsite, but went to Floyd County Hospital for the nursing classes. These students had both general ed and nursing classes together. At the end of three years, they were qualified to take NCLEX and work as RN. By staying for the 4th year, a BSN was earned.

I think if I had it to do over again, I would have taken the BSN program and paid for it myself. Not because I consider the ASN program inferior (we had higher NCLEX pass rate that the 4-yr state BSN program in town), but because of the added flexibility and that I could go right into a nurse practitioner program now.

Specializes in Diabetes ED, (CDE), CCU, Pulmonary/HIV.

[quote=Bethy-lynn specialized residency).

And to respond to the question of pay, If one bothers to look at the actual amount hours worked in a week, v. the overhead of running an office, minus malpratice insurance, physicians (on average) make less than we do per hour. Do the math.

Don't bet on it.....

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

Yes, it does depend on your point of view and I'm glad you acknowledge that. However, just because you can get a BSN for $3000 (or free in your case) doesn't mean that those of us who can't are morons.

*** Sorry for the misunderstanding. It cost me $3,000 to become an RN. Another $7,000 to get a BSN. The Moron is the person who pays that much to become and RN _AND_ thinks they are too good to do basic patient care. The person who sat reading a paper while their patient was in need of basic care as noted in the message I replied to.

Many people want to become nurses bad enough they will pay private school fees to become so. They are not morons, but making a sacrifice and a choice that should be respected.

*** Of course! I think it's a shame they have to do that but I certainly understand. I hope that after they pay that much money they will not sit around at work on paid time and dismiss their patients needs with flippant remarks.

However, I agree on the point that no matter what you pay for your education and what letters you have behind your name, if you're an RN you're a moron if you think basic care is beneath you.

*** Yes we agree.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Are you sure about this? I may be taking this out of context, but there are more than "a few credits" difference b/w an associate prepared RN and a bachelor's prepared RN. Granted, the nursing education of a BSN may have a few more requirements than an ADN, but the other half of the BSN degree may demand an additional 60 credit hours of general college education.

*** Some ADN programs require up to 88 credits. Lots of BSN programs require 120 credits. This is not a huge spread.

Here is a link to Palomar College's nursing web site. Palomar is a community college in San Marcos California (Northern San Diego county) with a superb (and demanding) nursing program. I have worked with some of their graduates and IMO they would compare favorably with graduates from any nursing school in the country.

http://www.palomar.edu/catalog/2006/pdf/section_6_pgs_159-210.pdf#page=50

Specializes in Nurse Anesthesia, ICU, ED.
*** Some ADN programs require up to 88 credits. Lots of BSN programs require 120 credits. This is not a huge spread.

Here is a link to Palomar College's nursing web site. Palomar is a community college in San Marcos California (Northern San Diego county) with a superb (and demanding) nursing program. I have worked with some of their graduates and IMO they would compare favorably with graduates from any nursing school in the country.

http://www.palomar.edu/catalog/2006/pdf/section_6_pgs_159-210.pdf#page=50

PMFB-RN,

WhileI do not doubt the quality of education at any institute, as we all take the NCLEX and must pass in order to practice, I do question that this insitute, that you use as an example, assigns high weight to the courses. For instance the Nursing I-IV courses have a weight of 9 hours each, for a total of 36 hours. This would mean that 43-47% of the total hours required to graduate (depending on the amount of math required) would come from 4 classes. This would also suggest that the remaining 37-43 credit hours would be from other general education classes.

I guess that my problem comes from the weight of the classes in proportion to the degree. In the program I am in, BSN at UNC-Chapel Hill as a second degree student, 60 credits came from my previous degree and the remaining 65 come from the nursing curricula. Our M/S #1 is 6 hours, M/S #2 is 8, Peds, Psych, Community Health, and Matenrity/Newborn (OB) are 5 hours each. This would mean that 34 credit hours from 6 classes make up 52% of the nursing curricula, but only 27% of the degree.

I think that there is indeed a larger spread.

The California licensed nurse to patient staffing law requires an RN triage nurse with no other patient assignment, one nurse to four or fewer patients, critical trauma is 1:1. The MICN must have no assignment but may assist when there is no radio call.

Paramedic training prepares a student for pre hospital emergency care.

They save lives and are amazing men and women.

California requires that in the ER or other hospital setting they must function as unlicensed assistive personnel. They may not give medications or perform other procedures that are essential to their pre hospital practice.

They do not learn the Nursing Process. They cannot be interchanged with registered nurses or licensed vocational nurses.: https://emstrainingbiz.com/paramedic.htm

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
PMFB-RN,

WhileI do not doubt the quality of education at any institute, as we all take the NCLEX and must pass in order to practice, I do question that this insitute, that you use as an example, assigns high weight to the courses. For instance the Nursing I-IV courses have a weight of 9 hours each, for a total of 36 hours. This would mean that 43-47% of the total hours required to graduate (depending on the amount of math required) would come from 4 classes. This would also suggest that the remaining 37-43 credit hours would be from other general education classes.

I guess that my problem comes from the weight of the classes in proportion to the degree. In the program I am in, BSN at UNC-Chapel Hill as a second degree student, 60 credits came from my previous degree and the remaining 65 come from the nursing curricula. Our M/S #1 is 6 hours, M/S #2 is 8, Peds, Psych, Community Health, and Matenrity/Newborn (OB) are 5 hours each. This would mean that 34 credit hours from 6 classes make up 52% of the nursing curricula, but only 27% of the degree.

I think that there is indeed a larger spread.

*** Yes I see your point. However you are comparing a California college to on in North Carolina. I think it would be interesting to compare the Paloma nursing program to one of the California state universities and the basic BSN program at UNC Chapel Hill to one of the community college ADN programs in North Carolina.

I suspect that the spread will vary quite a bit from state to state. For example in my state (Wisconsin) the UW has an RN to BSN program for ADN graduates of Wisconsin's technical colleges. Community nursing is the only nursing class in that program. The rest of the credits are general education and natural sciences.

The nurse educator in my ICU started as a diploma grad, then went on to get his BSN and MSN He has been an ICU nurse for 27 years and spent 6 years teaching in one of the UW BSN programs. We discussed this very subject not long ago and he told me that it has been his observation that there is far more variability among new grad nurses than between programs. He has seen great nurses come from all three types of programs and not so great nurses come from all three types of programs.

Specializes in Nurse Anesthesia, ICU, ED.

Another interesting detail I just noticied is that student in Paloma's nursing program are able to gain licensure without completing their degree. Look under the licensure section and it states that students may elect to qualify for NCLEX without completing their ADN.

What do you think of this?

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Another interesting detail I just noticied is that student in Paloma's nursing program are able to gain licensure without completing their degree. Look under the licensure section and it states that students may elect to complete only the 30 hours of nursing courses and qualify for NCLEX. What do you think of this?

*** That is a separate program and their license in only recognized in the state of California.

I work with plenty of very fine RNs who have no degree at all including the chief CRNA. Personally I don't care HOW you came to know what you know, I only care that you know what you are supposed to know.

I am currently in an RN to BSN program and some of it is a real learning experience. Some of it is silly and stupid. For example the classes and papers I have to write to become culturally aware. Not that I don't think cultural awareness is a valuable trait in a nurse, but given my life experience it's a waste.

There is simply no way that the current BSN programs could turn out enough RNs and the community colleges are not in a position to start offering BSNs so we are going to have ADN RNs for some time to come. Besides I like how nurses can "ladder" up from CNA to MSN. It allows many people the opportunity to become nurses who otherwise could not do so. Myself included.

If you notice, pharmacists and physical therapists now require a doctorate for entry level. OTs, dietitians, social workers require at bare minimum a bachelor's degree and most have a masters. Nursing has refused to raise the bar on education and is consequently being left in the dust.

If we're talking about raising wages and protecting our turf, so to speak, you don't need to raise the educational barriers to the labor pool. That hasn't made much of a difference in California ... what has made the difference is unions.

Look at these stats from the Bureau of Labor statistics. These are the average annual salaries broken down by profession in California and, with the exception of pharmacists and docs who obviously make more than everybody else, RN's are right up there. To wit:

Average RN annual salary: $70K a year. Compare this with ...

PT's: $70K a year

OT's: $70K a year

Dieticians: $55K

Medical Social Workers: $51K

The bachelor's, master's and doctorate degree requirements haven't made that much of a difference for these other professions ... at least financially. RN's are doing just as well if not better even though 70 percent of the nursing programs in the state are ADN.

Why? Because California has nursing unions. Not only do they negotiate better wages but they got the ratio law passed which raised wages even further. And, that will continue in 2008 when ratios will be reduced even more.

Unions are also a major reason why RT's still only make $55K a year even though they put roughly the same amount of time into their education as ADN RN's ... because the RT's don't have their own union like the RN's do.

:typing

nursing like the rest of the medical field is about MONEY. I am not surprise by any changes that take place in the medical field. Techs are replacing nurses in every field. Are they better or cheaper staff? Let's face it in a few years another picture will arise in nursing and there is not a way to prevent them from happening. Nurses have lost their image as professional caregivers, if techs can and do replace us.:crying2:

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