Questions regarding Maricopa CC's Nursing program

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 16, 2006

Does anyone know the rationale for them NOT considering GPA in admission decisions? How about not just accepting someone who's passed the NET with a minimum score, but giving placement to students with the highest GPA and NET Scores? If the universities do so, I'd assume that the MCCCD schools could as well. It would be an added incentive for students to excel in their pre-reqs, and the schools would benefit by perhaps having a brighter class of qualified students, which might also translate into higher program completion rates, and ultimately, a higher pass rate on the nursing boards. Perhaps I'm just playing the devil's advocate, but it seems to be a question worthy of discussion.

Most community colleges adhere to the philosophy of open access to education. There is a kind of social justice to this. While the university students war over their GPAs, volunteer work, recommendations, personal statements, and essays, the community colleges embrace the fact that one who has met the entrance requirements gets a chance to be a nurse in their programs. Yes, there might be a wait, but an average student with a 3.0 GPA isn't locked out. At the university, a 3.0 student is locked out of competitive programs. Let's think about this. Should a student who works hard, and meets the entrance requirements yet may only have a 2.5 or 3.0 be dismissed to a life without a profession? Community colleges say no. In fact students at community colleges tend to have much more severe hardships and challenges than their university peers. Think of CC's as society's 'leveler' as far as opportunity. I think that is fantastic when the rest of society just doesn't seem to be so concerned about social justice. The truth is, it doesn't take a 3.8 GPA to be a fantastic nurse. One of the best nurses I know graduated with a 2.3 GPA. He had to work full-time and he was poor. He was also plagued by PTSD from Vietnam. He didn't have the luxury of fussing over his volunteer work or his personal statement or his GPA. Him becoming an RN, and a good one, is just one example of social justice that the community colleges provide. Community colleges provide open access to education.

Also, many community colleges rely upon Federal grant money to help disadvantaged populations. If they switched to GPA admission then enrollment for these disadvantaged populations would greatly decrease. Federal grant money would go away.

AZmom · Nov 17, 2006

I've made that drive to Miami/Globe about a billion times from both ways (Phx and Tucson). I don't remember it being a windy wintery pass! LOL-it's still Az.

Good to know! Hopefully I can take a trip that way in the next week or two.

NewJA · Nov 17, 2006

Good to know! Hopefully I can take a trip that way in the next week or two.

Globe is a tiny desert mining town, last time I was there (3 yrs ago).

Desert = no snow. The "pass" through the mountains into Globe is hardly a pass at all, and they barely qualify as mountains. Might get a couple inches of snow one day per winter, or maybe every few years.

And I agree with that last post on community colleges... I think I may have griped about them not considering GPA recently, but that was just nonsense based on frustration.

If GPA mattered at CCs, I would never have gotten into one in the first place, and that is how I got my first degree, which lked to my getting into a university.

My CC did not even require a H.S. diploma - they gave you a GED after completing 24 credit hrs of the regular college classes. Once I heard of that program, I dropped H.S. immediately and went to college.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

And I agree with that last post on community colleges... I think I may have griped about them not considering GPA recently, but that was just nonsense based on frustration.
If GPA mattered at CCs, I would never have gotten into one in the first place, and that is how I got my first degree, which lked to my getting into a university.
My CC did not even require a H.S. diploma - they gave you a GED after completing 24 credit hrs of the regular college classes. Once I heard of that program, I dropped H.S. immediately and went to college.

I know what you mean. Even though I agree with what I posted above - I recently had a whining fit/breakdown about the waitlists for nursing school. I think I was whining..."why can't they admit based upon GPA? I'd be in a nursing program already!"

CrazyPremed, MSN, RN, NP · Nov 17, 2006

I can definitely understand the philosophy behind not using GPA's and NET scores for acceptance to CC's.

Realistically, the nursing programs ARE competitive, and to be fair, GPA and NET scores should factor into a decision. When there are 800 people waiting for 400 seats, those who have performed better should come first. I realize that people going to CC's do have to work and have other priorities. I understand this as a career changing adult applying to nursing school. I also realize that Nursing - like all science and health care fields - is rooted in academics and science. Every semester students are kicked out of nursing school because they can not academically handle the requirements. Honestly, should a student who has had to repeat A&P 1 twice, and micro once be given priority over the student with a Bachelor's in biology and two years work experience as a CNA? I think not.

With the competition, I truly feel that nursing schools will become more and more competitive. If they were, those people doing well in school will not have to wait, and those who can't/won't do what they need to do or don't have the talent will get the extra time needed by being denied admissions. The caliper of nurses will rise, and the non-graduating numbers will drop. To think that a student who - for whatever justified/nonjustified reason - can do poorly in the prereqs, but will become Sally Student once she is accepted to nursing school is a stretch. If a person can't/is not willing to learn Kreb's cycle or the physiology of the kidney, what makes us think that they will excel at narcotic medication administration or health assessment skills. Just my two cents.

It would be interesting to know the correlation of medication/nursing errors to nursing GPA and net scores. I wonder if there is one. If not, then scores shouldn't be a concern, even at the university level. If so, they should factor in everywhere. Hmmm...

Let the flames begin.

CrazyPremed

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

Most community colleges adhere to the philosophy of open access to education. There is a kind of social justice to this. While the university students war over their GPAs, volunteer work, recommendations, personal statements, and essays, the community colleges embrace the fact that one who has met the entrance requirements gets a chance to be a nurse in their programs. Yes, there might be a wait, but an average student with a 3.0 GPA isn't locked out. At the university, a 3.0 student is locked out of competitive programs. Let's think about this. Should a student who works hard, and meets the entrance requirements yet may only have a 2.5 or 3.0 be dismissed to a life without a profession? Community colleges say no. In fact students at community colleges tend to have much more severe hardships and challenges than their university peers. Think of CC's as society's 'leveler' as far as opportunity. I think that is fantastic when the rest of society just doesn't seem to be so concerned about social justice. The truth is, it doesn't take a 3.8 GPA to be a fantastic nurse. One of the best nurses I know graduated with a 2.3 GPA. He had to work full-time and he was poor. He was also plagued by PTSD from Vietnam. He didn't have the luxury of fussing over his volunteer work or his personal statement or his GPA. Him becoming an RN, and a good one, is just one example of social justice that the community colleges provide. Community colleges provide open access to education.
Also, many community colleges rely upon Federal grant money to help disadvantaged populations. If they switched to GPA admission then enrollment for these disadvantaged populations would greatly decrease. Federal grant money would go away.

Just because someone has a 4.0 doesn't mean that they can afford to go to a university or that they have the time in their lives for such a program. Althought I had a great GPA, if it wasn't for Pima, I wouldn't be a nurse. That's why I have always believed that some seats should be held for GPA/experience students at the CC level. It will never happen, but why not hold like 10 seats for these people? I was 29 and unmarried when I started NS. I worked as a PCT, and although it didn't pay enough, it paid too much and as a result I didn't qualify for a lot of Finacial aid. In addition, I was not willing to go into debt over school. If I hadn't been accepted by Pima, or if I had to wait the 3 years that Pima students down here in Tucson are being forced to wait, then I would have just chosen a different career.

CC's aren't just for people with a less than competetive GPA.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

Just because someone has a 4.0 doesn't mean that they can afford to go to a university or that they have the time in their lives for such a program. Althought I had a great GPA, if it wasn't for Pima, I wouldn't be a nurse. That's why I have always believed that some seats should be held for GPA/experience students at the CC level. It will never happen, but why not hold like 10 seats for these people? I was 29 and unmarried when I started NS. I worked as a PCT, and although it didn't pay enough, it paid too much and as a result I didn't qualify for a lot of Finacial aid. In addition, I was not willing to go into debt over school. If I hadn't been accepted by Pima, or if I had to wait the 3 years that Pima students down here in Tucson are being forced to wait, then I would have just chosen a different career.
CC's aren't just for people with a less than competetive GPA.

I agree with what you said about the 4.0 student, GPA and community college. Hey, that's me!

I didn't mean that CC's are just for people with a less than competitive GPA. Although do they also help those in that situation, too.

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

I can definitely understand the philosophy behind not using GPA's and NET scores for acceptance to CC's.
Realistically, the nursing programs ARE competitive, and to be fair, GPA and NET scores should factor into a decision. When there are 800 people waiting for 400 seats, those who have performed better should come first. I realize that people going to CC's do have to work and have other priorities. I understand this as a career changing adult applying to nursing school. I also realize that Nursing - like all science and health care fields - is rooted in academics and science. Every semester students are kicked out of nursing school because they can not academically handle the requirements. Honestly, should a student who has had to repeat A&P 1 twice, and micro once be given priority over the student with a Bachelor's in biology and two years work experience as a CNA? I think not.
With the competition, I truly feel that nursing schools will become more and more competitive. If they were, those people doing well in school will not have to wait, and those who can't/won't do what they need to do or don't have the talent will get the extra time needed by being denied admissions. the caliper of nurses will rise, and the non graduating numbers will drop. To think that a student who - for whatever justified/nonjustified reason - can do poorly in the prereqs, but will become Sally Student once she is accepted to nursing school is a stretch. If a person can't/is not willing to learn Kreb's cycle or the physiology of the kidney, what makes us think that they will excel at narcotic medication administration or health assessment skills. Just my two cents.
It would be interesting to know the correlation of medication/nursing errors to nursing GPA and net scores. I guess,
Let the flames begin.
CrazyPremed

Crazy, I admit that I posted my previous comment without reading the rest of the thread! I'm a bad girl. But now that I've read your post, I'd like to comment.

It was really well said and hit the spot. It's really all about the competetion.

In regards to the nursing shortage, nursing schools and state boards all what to know how to 'fix it'. So they add more seats, increase entry, lower standards to pass (happened at my school, some should NOT have passed). They do everything but take a step back and evaulate the students coming IN.

In addition to GPA, I do believe experience should mean something. I think the schools need to go back to the most important factor on admission--the interview!

The goal today is "how many students can we admit", but it should be, "how many nurses can we graduate". My class started with 105. We graduated 66, and about 15-20 of those were last semester who had failed and LPN transition students. So that's is about a 50% loss of seats. How many qualified students would do anything for those seats? How many CNAs with a decent GPA are still waiting? I know a lot of people who failed, and quite frankly, I knew that they were going to fail off of jumpstreet.

Of course, lower GPA students can make great nurses. High GPA students can make terrible nurses. The trick is finding the combo of the two. Higher GPAs correlate with being able to handle the coorificework of nursing school. Students with healthcare experience correlate with being able to handle clinicals. It's a match made in Heaven!

But, to anyone who thinks that being a nurse is not an acedemic thing, that it's all caring and not science based is fooling themselves. I'm thinking harder and studying more as a nurse that I ever did as a student.

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

I agree with what you said about the 4.0 student, GPA and community college. Hey, that's me!
I didn't mean that CC's are just for people with a less than competitive GPA. Although do they also help those in that situation, too.

The thing is, now they are only helping people in that situation. Those who strive to get good grades aren't being rewarded (other than internally) for their efforts.

I was admitted under the lottery plan. I turned in a poorly photocopied slip of paper that had just a few lines on it. Name, address, and program of interest (all health related professions used the same form). Nothing for experience, job history,...anything like that. But I turned this form in with my transcripts and that's it, and I got in the next semester. I called myself lucky, but I didn't know a lot of 4.0s who had to be waitlisted.

It's too bad the lotto is gone. Now people are being told that they are admitted-to Fall 2009! That's just too long for people. Why should a perfectly good student such as yourself have to wait for 2009, when 50% of a class is failing because they didn't know they'd really have to study this much.

Remember the butcher story? He thought because he cut up animal parts that he would be ok in clinicals. But clinicals are more than blood and gore (never actually). Clinical is where we type up 60 page care plans until the crack of dawn and then go implement them at 0645! Not easy for most, that's for sure.

If people think that taking A&P and micro together is too hard, wait until nursing school. Once you're admitted, it never gets easier. Never!

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

Wow, Cardiac! The stats you list on the numbers of starting v. graduating just blows me away. Obviously the admission requirements aren't achieving a balance of ensuring that students can be successful in the program and allowing opportunity to students. The philosophy of open access to education at the CC level is SUPPOSED to mean that if you are qualified to be successful in the program, you get that opportunity. Even though there might be a wait.

I have a soft spot for CC. When I graduated from high school, it was my CC that took me, even though I didn't meet the board of reagents requirements. When I graduated from high school, it was my CC that gave me a scholarship for tuition fees only because the financial aid office knew that I was in a desperate situation. I had to graduate from high school early because I was in an abusive home and had to get out. I couldn't get financial aid because my parents wouldn't sign the forms. Let's just say the University wouldn't even take me. There you go - CC meeting a need. We all know that CC tends to work better for adult students like you and me, too, for other reasons.

I guess what I am trying to say is I support non-competitive admission to CC programs as long as the admission requirements are high enough to just about ensure success, as much as possible. Even if it means a bit of a wait. But when you've got that many students failing and the wait is 3 years...something must change. They need to raise the admission requirements and also perhaps dedicate some seats to students based upon GPA and other factors.

Sadly, I don't think Pima will change the admission requirements because that would make them lose their Federal grant money. So I guess I would have to question if their priority is to educate students and produce nurses for the community? Or is it to get all the Federal grant money they can and the real world-results be damned?

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Nov 17, 2006

I DO feel the same way about CC's. Like I said, if it weren't for Pima, I wouldn't be a nurse-period!

I just wish they could set aside some seats based on GPA/experience/interview. Like 10%.

But, no. They won't. And yes, it is all related to $$.

Multi, I graduated HS with a 1.5GPA! So, trust me- I wasn't getting into the U either! If it wasn't for the CC, I'd have no education at all.

AZmom · Nov 17, 2006

Overly lax admission criteria may have something to do with a high failure rate. So may the way the nursing program is structured. With more and more students needing to work while attending school, and not enough programs which are offerred on a part time basis, students may find themselves chancing it with the traditional programs and sinking themselves when they can't handle it all.

The BIGGEST gripe I have with MCCCD is the structure of their program. Once you're waitlisted, you've little or nothing left to take for courses. So you twiddle your thumbs and forget all you've learned.

Once you get in, it's full steam ahead, rigourous workload. Now granted, I don't expect nursing school to be a breeze. Hardly. But I think they could lighten the load by offerring Nutrition, Pharm, Patho as corequisites eligible for enrollment while waitlisted or summers once you're in the program. Other CC's in Arizona offer those up in full or part as coreqs. I wonder if they see the failure rates that MCCCD does?