Question for all you "gas passers"

athomas91 · Nov 24, 2003

i don't think anyone will take a well-intentioned question personally - but i agree that your idea of advanced practice rn/ pseodo md is flawed

i have many of the same concerns you do with nursing students attempting crna school w/o a strong background of pt care - i do feel this way for crna training and other clinical advanced practice nursing degrees due to the fact that school alone is not enough education to make you a good practitioner. although i do have a good background - i would never choose to go to med school - though i know i could a would do great - because that is 12 years of my life - FOR LESS MONEY in the end......In the end, i am sure that the schools are very good at weeding out those w/o enough experience - let's face it - they don't want any liability - i think it is wonderful that these students have these aspirations - and are working toward their goal - after hearing how difficult crna training is - i wouldn't attempt it w/o nursing experience!! I will let you know - i start in jan!!

gotosleep · Nov 24, 2003

Originally posted by kmchugh
Why not just come out and say "This isn't personal, and I don't want to make you mad, but why are you guys such butt heads?"

Sorry, but this question, with all the qualifiers in the world, is bound to spark the anger of many CRNA's. I have yet to see anyone accuse a student in nursing school, who has not yet touched a patient, but wants to be an FNP or CNM, of wanting to be a "pseudo-MD." Why the special attention to CRNA's? I'm going to try to hold my temper in check, and see if we can't deal with the issues you raised.

Most who come to this board regularly know my background. I returned to school at 33, and had to make some choices. I knew I wanted to go into healthcare, but wasn't sure which direction I should take. I considered med school seriously, and with a final undergrad GPA of 3.972, could have taken that route. Instead, I chose nursing, and chose nursing with every intent of becoming a CRNA. Why?

Not because I wanted to be a "pseudo-MD." Not because I was afraid of med school. Not because I wanted to make the big bucks. I chose nursing specifically for what nurses do, which is look at the big picture. MD's rely on us to do this. And I chose anesthesia because I am of a scientific bent, and it seemed to me to be the most scientifically based of the advanced nursing practices. It also seemed to me to be the most difficult and rewarding path in nursing.

There are a number of practicing and future CRNA's, myself included, who will tell you that had there not been CRNA's, they never would have gone into nursing. Money is a SMALL part of that statement. I would never have gone into nursing, primarily because I was not willing to put up with the crap a staff nurse is forced to take for the rest of my life. I admire nurses who can be staff nurses for 20 - 30 years, and keep their focus. Especially in light of how nurses are treated by some physicians and nearly all administrators throughout their career. But I knew I couldn't do what they did forever. I wanted more, and I knew it.

Mike, I'm not angry at you for asking the question. But your question highlights how many nurses view CRNA's. (And yes, I do know a few CRNA's who contribute to this.) Many nurses feel that we have left the true faith of nursing. By accepting higher education that is mostly hard science, by accepting greater independence and responsiblity, by taking higher salaries (which probably is at the root of many nurses' jealousy), we have become apostate, heretics to the true faith and path of nursing.

I am Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist. I am a NURSE, and am proud of that fact.

Kevin McHugh, CRNA

Well said kevin.

80% of the people in my class entered nursing specifically to train in anesthesia. I think it's great for the profession. It amazes me how little NURSES know about NURSE anesthesia.

stressednurse · Nov 25, 2003

Each nurse is in their "specialty" area for personal and different reasons. Hopefully they like where they are in their nursing career.

As far as everyone knowing "a lot" about another aspect of nursing....geeze, how could we unless we have been there or had an intense interest in that area.

Experience and schooling add to our knowledge, A geriatric staff nurse is just as important to their patient as a NP is. We work as a medical team and hopefully with good communication.

Without CRNA's the OR's wouldn't function well, without the admission department no one would be scheduled for those surgeries. How about housekeeping, geeze, taking out the trash and cleaning up the mess takes a whole team in itself. Secretary/Clerk of each area is the glue that holds the unit together...that person takes information and directs it to where it needs to be.

So to answer the question of why many nurses go to CRNA school right out of BS nurse school, it's probably because that is what they want to do.

London88 · Nov 25, 2003

An MD goes to school because he/she wants to become an MD. A nurse practitioner goes to school because he/she wants to become a NP. A dentist goes to school because he wants to become a dentist. A CRNA goes to school because he or she wants to become a CRNA. What is wrong with going to school with the sole intent of becoming a CRNA? If a person wants to become a CRNA because they do not like taking care of patients then perhaps they are in the wrong business because from what I have seen in the OR as a CRNA you are deeply engrossed in patient care and patient advocacy. Where is it written that you must like bedside nursing to become a CRNA? It seems to be me that the original post is beating about the bush in that the real issue is that many of the people who want to become CRNAs want to do so without appreciating bedside nursing. I do not believe that you need to appreciate bedside nursing, but you do need to respect the profession and realize that there is something to be gained from bedside nursing before becoming a CRNA. Hence the fact that critical care nursing is a requirement for CRNA schools.

smogmatt · Nov 26, 2003

Just some thoughts I had:

is CRNA school 2nd fiddle to med school??

Is Nursing school 2nd fiddle to Med school

give me 8 years of anyone's life and You can make an MD out of them

if we could somehow magically take out all the liberal arts/humanities out of the Undergrad think how much more you could accomplish with a BSN, think how deeper, broader the RN education could be (This is a whole other ball of wax).

I think a ASN or BSN RN learns a tremendous amount given all the other classes they have to wade though.

There is NO SHORT ROUTE! just a different route. Don't bag on your fellow RN's I have had several encounters with med students where I walk away thinking to my self; HOW IN THE WORLD DID THEY GET INTO MED SCHOOL, I wouldn't trust them to flip my burger @ McDonlds!! Sure their are bad RN's (SN's) and MD's (med students) out there.

a common misconception: the year(s) of experience, in a ICU, I worked in a big regional hospital, I have to say I learned as much if not more in the ICU than I did in undergrad. AND I even got a paycheck, NOT all education do you have to pay for, i.e. the ICU

Shodobe: FYI on CRNA admission requirements @ my program:

BS

RN

GRE (Graduate Record Examination)

Organic Chem, Stats

>1 year ICU RN experience

there is a Med school within in the same college that my CRNA program is in, this 1st semester we have had many basic science Professors (who also teach the Med students) comment how amazed how much we know clinically, in fact, some have questions for us how a certain aspects their teaching relates clinically. comparing a 1st year CRNA student to a 1st Med student-apples to oranges. Our professor instructed us to introduce ourselves as "Joe" an ICU Registered Nurse, a Nurse Anesthesia Student, we are not just Med student we are RN's with a wealth of knowledge

I was a Pre-med student until I got a job in a OR (to gain experience for Med school application) when I found out what Anesthesia is and what a CRNA is AND what a good thing nursing is!! So why did I chose the CRNA route? was I not smart enough? did I not have the disapline? did I just want to be a "pseudo md? Not at all, after all my research I found a CRNA would fit me and my lifestyle better than an MD.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, or be offensive, but this line of thinking damages CRNA's RN's SN's and wanta-be's

shodobe · Nov 26, 2003

I am sorry I even asked this question. If some of you missed it I have been an Or nurse for 27 years and have seen probably far more than you think. This was the kind of response I thought I would get from some of you. The others were very honest and ANSWERED my question very well. I also think to many of you read far to much into my question. What is this that someone can't ask a question and pose it not to offend? I never meant to offend and next time I won't ask permission I'll just ask! I don't think some of you are as proud to be nurses as you make out to be. I applaud all of you that go on to bigger and better things and want more. I personally love what I do, a grunt in the trenches doing it day in and day out. I know this reply is a bit hot, but I was really miffed that some of you took this so personal. All I wanted was a simple answer and all I got from some of you was heat I won't be answering any replys because it isn't worth my time. Mike

Brenna's Dad · Nov 26, 2003

I gave ten years of my life taking care of patients,and for the most part in the ICU.

I'm not sure if shodobe is aware, but many might question the amount of "nursing" that is performed in the OR.

kmchugh · Nov 26, 2003

Originally posted by shodobe
I am sorry I even asked this question.

Yeah, me too.

I don't think some of you are as proud to be nurses as you make out to be. I applaud all of you that go on to bigger and better things and want more. I personally love what I do, a grunt in the trenches doing it day in and day out. I know this reply is a bit hot, but I was really miffed that some of you took this so personal.

First of all, who are you to say whether or not any of us are proud of who or what we are? And what I really can't understand is how you can come in here, ask insulting questions, then be offended that you get the response you expected? "Pseudo-MD's?" Good lord, that's bound to spark ire in most CRNA's.

I think I see what's going on, though. I don't think you are quite as proud as you make out to be. Perhaps after 27 years, you are feeling stuck in a rut. Perhaps you are embittered, and resent those coming up who have aspirations for something more than what you have. And just maybe, those with the aspirations see that as well, and know that they don't really want to work with or for such a bitter person. Perhaps they feel like they want to be in a better position in 27 years.

I know this reply is a bit hot, but I was really miffed that you would come here, insult me, then be suprised that I took offense to your insult.

Kevin McHugh

TraumaNurse · Nov 26, 2003

Shodobe,

I agree with Kevin, why are you surprised at the responses to such an inflamatory question? Even if you meant not to offend anyone, your tone and wording of the question obviously has sparked a little resentment! I'm not even sure what you were trying to accomplish by asking this question. Maybe if you can get the chip off your shoulder, you could reword the question and get less caustic responses.

deepz · Nov 26, 2003

Originally posted by London88
......Hence the fact that critical care nursing is a requirement for CRNA schools.

The significance of that ICU experience is sometimes under-appreciated. Here's a snippet paraphrased from AANA:

"This critical care experience is important to form the basis of a CRNA's ability to analyze situations, to make decisions, to communicate clearly with the other members of the surgical team, and to respond quickly and appropriately in an emergency."

http://www.gaspasser.com/unique.html

deepz

FlyingED · Nov 26, 2003

ICU nurses are highly skilled professional people who work extremely well under difficult conditions. The one short coming a "FEW" ICU nurses have is they believe they are the only ones who do.

For an example Flight Nurses and ED nurses have all the skills ICU nurses have except they perform those skill in shorter time period. The skill set for ED/FN, granted there a few exceptions, ie, artlines etc. is very similar.

I have worked ICU and understand the skills required to work in ICU. But, I believe before ICU nurses start talking about there own superiority they need to cross over to the Dark Side and work a few shifts in the ED.

athomas91 · Nov 26, 2003

amen, amen, amen flyinged............ couldn't have said it better myself - i do ed.... and cvicu.... ed is more challenging !!

but soon i just get to concentrate on passing gas..... can't wait!