Program retention rates question

Student4_life · May 12, 2011

You are correct that NCLEX pass rates alone are useless. Sadly students don't ask the retention question, and some schools do end up with a very small portion of the cohort sticking around until graduation.

DegreeOrBust · May 12, 2011

Thanks for replying! Does the state nursing board monitor these rates also and set requirements as well?

~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN · May 12, 2011

I would definitely be careful of rumors. My school has a very good NCLEX pass rate since getting their national accreditation. It's consistently been 100% since I started and one semester is was 99%. We started with 50 and lost about 16 to failing for the program and 1 to personal issues. We do have a tough program but the hospitals talk well about our students and we are prepared well. Unfortunately not everyone can make it, not everyone passes, not everyone can get the hang of the new style tests and so on. I don't see this as weeding out.

A lot of people that didn't pass in my program would be inclined to say that they weed us out, that the grading scale is to hard and what not, I would have to strongly disagree, the staff has been extremely supportive and they have a lot of resources for the students to help them succeed. Although A's in my program were not common, (well in 4th semester it was a lot easier) but getting A's wasn't impossible. It just happened rarely before than.

A lot of the people, I would venture to say, all of the people that failed in my program, failed from their own doings. Not that anyone was against them. Of course if you ask them they will tell you differently.

DegreeOrBust · May 12, 2011

I would definitely be careful of rumors. My school has a very good NCLEX pass rate since getting their national accreditation. It's consistently been 100% since I started and one semester is was 99%. We started with 50 and lost about 16 to failing for the program and 1 to personal issues. We do have a tough program but the hospitals talk well about our students and we are prepared well. Unfortunately not everyone can make it, not everyone passes, not everyone can get the hang of the new style tests and so on. I don't see this as weeding out.
A lot of people that didn't pass in my program would be inclined to say that they week us out, that the grading scale is to hard and what not, I would have to strongly disagree, the staff has been extremely supportive and they have a lot of resources for the students to help them succeed. Although A's in my program were not common, (well in 4th semester it was a lot easier) but getting A's wasn't impossible. It just happened rarely before than.
A lot of the people, I would venture to say, all of the people that failed in my program, failed from their own doings. Not that anyone was against them. Of course if you ask them they will tell you differently.

Okay, this makes me feel a little bit better. I'm usually a very good student and when I make it through classes on the first try, that several students have to repeatedly take such as algebra and anatomy, because I work very hard (not because it comes easily) I always wonder if they did all they could do to get through. I know a friend who has failed classes before but I also know she doesn't visit tutors or read the chapters and often studies last minute.

Anyway, as long as I have a chance if I do all I can do. Just didn't want to get rapped up into something and work my rear off just to have someone kick me out! Thanks again. :)

~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN · May 13, 2011

Okay, this makes me feel a little bit better. I'm usually a very good student and when I make it through classes on the first try, that several students have to repeatedly take such as algebra and anatomy, because I work very hard (not because it comes easily) I always wonder if they did all they could do to get through. I know a friend who has failed classes before but I also know she doesn't visit tutors or read the chapters and often studies last minute.
Anyway, as long as I have a chance if I do all I can do. Just didn't want to get rapped up into something and work my rear off just to have someone kick me out! Thanks again. :)

I personally think that the biggest thing needed to get through school, (or anything) is a positive attitude. I came close to not passing in my second semester, I got the exact points needed on my final. So very close call. It wasn't that the stuff was to hard. I had a lot of things going on at home that I let get in the way, so had I not passed, it would have been my own fault. I didn't give up my life, I still watched my shows, came online, went out with friends, had a social life, spent time with my family and so on. I didn't study for hours a day. I kept a good attitude, I stayed positive, I enjoyed myself and school and I graduated this past week. It can be done and it can be done without giving up everything and hating the whole experience.

Stay away from the negative people and keep your focus, remember your excitement and keep it. Turn every situation into a learning experience. Including clinicals and when you might see a bad co-nurse or something. learn from it.

UVA Grad Nursing · May 13, 2011

This is a very interesting thread to follow.

I've been a consultant to several nursing programs, and coordinate admissions at another university. Some programs I have seen pride themselves on their high NCLEX pass rate, but often have a high attrition rate (up to 60%). While I think that Mi Vida Loca is 100% correct that it is up to the individual student to do well, I posit that there can be an inverse relationship with the admissions standards to get into the program and the attrition rate.

Academic programs that are tougher to get into (higher standards) are often those with the higher retention rates. Schools that have more lax admissions standards usually have a higher attrition rate. For example, at my own univeristy we received over 900 applications this year for entry-level nursing programs (BSN and Direct Entry MSN combined) for approximately 100 total spaces. Our retention rate has been 92-95% over the past 5 years. Recent Congressional reports on some of the for-profit online schools indicate that their graduation rates hover around 20-25% over same past 5 years.

I would encourage the prospective applicant to ask both about the NCLEX pass-rate as well as the % of admitted students who graduate on-time with their cohort. While you are at it, also ask about the academic support programs (tutoring, etc) that exist for students who encounter problems.

jtboog2003 · May 13, 2011

This is a very interesting question because here in Philadelphia there are schools that have high NCLEX pass rates but that is because you are required to take an exit exam, and get a rather high score before they even allow you to graduate and take the NCLEX. If you don't pass this test you don't get to graduate and take the NCLEX.

Rob27, BSN, RN · May 13, 2011

I don't really understand why it's even in question. Of course the programs weed you out in order to keep their NCLEX rates up. It's in their very best interest to do so. I would be more amazed if they didn't do this. In North Carolina, for example, our State Board will put a school in warning status (and if not corrected pull their approval) if the schools do not keep a 3 year avg above 95% of the National Pass rates.

Nearly every college is judged (right or wrong) on the NCLEX pass rate. Administrators pimp that rate if it's good, and start firing people if it's bad. Anyone who thinks this is not the case needs to really wake up.

This is why colleges make you take the ATI CARP and HESI? Their excuse is that it makes them able to plan the program better, but if that was the case why require the student to make a certain percent?

Just think about it a little bit.

llg, PhD, RN · May 14, 2011

The retention factor is very important to consider as you are choosing your school.

While some people may think it sounds reasonable for a school to accept a lot of "marginal" students into their program knowing that a lot will flunk out of drop out ... it can be quite unethical. That's particularly true if they "sell" the school to the student or suggest that the students who flunked or dropped out "didn't try very hard," etc.... implying that everyone who makes a sincere effort can succeed. In some cases, schools recruit many more students than they can accommodate in their clinical courses -- knowing ahead of time that they will probably flunk a lot of students before they get that far in the program. But they don't care because they make their money on the tuition, fees, book purchases, etc. in the first few courses.

Poorly qualified students get duped into such programs and spend lots of money on the first few semesters, perhaps taking out loans to pay for school with only a slim chance of actually graduating. The school makes a big profit on them ... and the students are saddled with a big student loan that cripples their finances for years.

Yes, it might be the student's "fault" that they didn't work harder or that they didn't have the ability to learn the material and skills to pass the tests with a reasonable amount of teaching attention, etc. But when large numbers are flunking out, you have to think that there are either problems in the education being provided ... or they are behaving unethically and accepting students into the program who aren't able to do that level of work. A high failing rate is a sign of a problem with a school, and I would hesitate to go there.

Be very cautious when dealing with such a school. Look closely at their attrition rate. You might be one of the people who doesn't graduate and you need to be prepared both emotionally and financially to deal with that.