Jami_Jared

The bachelors program that I attended had 3 years of primary nursing classes and 1 year of prereqs and general courses. But our college went above and beyond the minimal standards requiring 480 hours of clinicals a year, which frustrated me at first, because it seemed like we didn't have time for anything but school. But in the end it was all to make us a better nurse. I hope that you weren't intending to downplay a bachelor's degree by asking how many years are actual nursing?? Because the prereqs also included a baseline of developmental psych, death & dying classes, science, math, english, statistics, research, and many others that want to lead to a well rounded Bio/Psycho/Social degree. I just feel that we shouldn't have to defend our higher levels of education. Why are people so critical ...is it jealously? Or is it that people want to have more for less work, less time, less effort? It really isn't fair overall. We should want to hold bachelor's degree. We all should want to be overachiever's so that we can put our best foot forward and give our patients the best care possible.

Tee It Up Tom --- I read in the thread that most of the nurses on here say that they eventually would like to go on for further education. I didn't just make that up. Its written all over the forums. The only reason that you can enjoy the 6 figure income you have is because of the Bachelor's prepared nurses that are a key part of the nursing profession. Why do you think that the hospitals/nursing homes/surgery centers all push for the education component and for nurses to continue their education? By the way ND and a few other states have talks through the legislature to have titles on nursing badges that read ASN/ADN - Technical Nurse .....RN and then BSN/BAN - Professional Nurse - RN. So its not just something that I am creating my self it is in many discussions nationwide to either make it known different levels of education or to start mandating a unified entry level Bachelors degree. I'm sorry if you don't like it but thats just the way it is. I don't say that ADN/ASN - RN's don't have professionalism ....I think they do in every way. But an associates or diploma degree is not a Professional degree it is considered a technical degree. The standards state that a bachelors degree in the lowest level that you can obtain a Professional degree. It is a matter of perception on how you interpret the use of words.

Timothy, Your words are eloquent and I respect your opinion. But you also need to respect mine and the need to have a unified minimum entry level requirement for nursing. I wonder where you are getting your stats from regarding the population of nurses. I would be interested in reviewing the websites for the statistics. In ND we are dominated by BSN's and I have never had a ADN from MN or SD or MT run circles around me. That shows your disrespect for your peers who hold a higher education than you have. I work seamlessly with all healthcare employees from the CNA, to the ward clerk, LPN all the way up the the Dr. I have worked in the real trenches of the nursing world for 5 years as a RN and for 6 years when I was a CNA. I have experience and I see the difference daily. The ADN programs that we are used to are from MTCTC - Moorhead, MN and there is a lack of respect for this program. The clinicals for OB consist of one visit to a WIC clinic, the clinicals in the ICU consist of one day of observation. They have many clinicals on the Med/surg unit but these students aren't allowed to practice of have their clinicals in any of the hospitals in Fargo - Meritcare or Innovis - (only at an LPN they can) so the only place they have "practiced" nursing is at the VA hospital and clinic settings. Now is the well roundedness you are talking about. Is this where the standards are so highly set by "ALL" ASN/ADN programs. You just can't generalize because everywhere isn't the same. So this affects all the trenches of nursing. I'm sure there are great ASN/ ADN programs across the country. We just aren't seeing that in the midwest areas. Referring back to the the beginnings of nursing. Most nurses when through hospital based nursing programs that were pretty much their entire life. It was considered a women's profession and they lived in nursing quarters and ate, drank and slept nursing. From this the diploma nurse was developed. I understand that but technology and times are changing and education is the key. I agree with many of the quotes and notes from others who also see that this is the time to make a change and it can be done. We just have to come together and have a plan. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. Most ADN/ASN RN's eventually want to pursue their BSN anyway for different job opportunities or advancement into better hours. I just want to keep our wages competitive and want our profession to be seen as Professional.

We will always have a shortage of health care professionals in the nation. The baby boomer generation is going to have many people in retirement soon and there are fewer generation X'ers to take care of them. And with more fields opening up to women, less women are entering the nursing profession and following other dreams. The medical society is also doing way more things than in the past. So more jobs have been created that weren't around in the past. Do you know that there are shortages in many rural areas for Doctors??? But the level of entry to medical school hasn't been shortened and it still takes the same time for each doctor to earn a medical degree? I just have strong feelings to uphold a professional standard for nursing. We as a profession want to have a strong voice and be unified...but now can we when we have all this bickering b/t degrees. We need to respect those who choose to uphold a higher standard of education and not minimize it by saying its the same boards and both hold the same license. If that is what makes people feel better than so be it. But in all reality everyone would benefit if we could all agree to uphold a universal BSN degree. I think that people should be grandfathered in so that they don't have to pay large amounts of money to continue their education if they don't want to and are close to retirement. But we need to start somewhere!

Professional by definition has meant holding a Bachelors! It doesn't mean that nurses; LPN, ASN, ADN can't act like a professional. But having a "Professional" degree constitutes attending a university or 4 year college. I don't make the rules thats just the way it is in society and that is the bare requirements. I do not lack understanding of what ASN-RN schools are or what they do. Two year colleges are not part of a state university system in any state that is why they are called community college, technical institutions...they have a different name for a reason. Universities are held with higher regard nation wide for every degree not just in nursing that is why it costs more to attend there and people recieve well - rounded degrees. We should not put BSN's down for having higher education!! The problem is that ASN - nurses think they are equal just because they pass the same boarding. And that does lead to inner confusion. But take the time to really think about what is being said here. You are trying to pass off that attending less college but passing the sames boards really means that things are equal. Who are we trying to fool here. Our inner selves ?? I don't think so.

It all amounts to the fact that you attended a TECHNICAL college which is a lesser degree, and Bachelor's prepared attend a University which equals a PROFESSIONAL degree. If it was considered an equal degree than they would both have the same name. It is sad that 2 degrees take the same board.s.. and I don't agree with it. It is also sad that 2 different degrees equal the same pay....and I also don't agree with that. I know that in a man's profession ...example business, engineering, etc. the same pay would never be acceptable for a lesser degree...and there aren't 2 year degrees or associates degrees in those fields that pay the same, and take the same boards. In those types of fields there is standards for Professionalism and to be unified we need to stop cutting the corners and taking the easy way out and buff up our minimum requirements to all hold Bachelor's degrees. I do agree with you on finding common ground but by downplaying a higher level of education it is hard to agree with your thoughts.

I love the way you think!!! I agree with you totally. There needs to be professional standards!

I would disagree with you completely. I am from North Dakota and we did not fail miserably during our long campaign of promoting the professionalism of holding a bachelor's degree for nursing. This law was not changed years ago either. It was recently -- 2 years ago to be exact -- changed to allow ADN's to work here. Previously if you held an ADN degree it was required that within 7 years you would need to have a BSN degree. We did not and still do not have large shortages in nursing across our state. Please get your facts straight about state issues. There was no miserable death... ND just felt the constant pressures of being the only state with higher education in mind to encourage and require a BSN/BAN. Many of the nurses here in this state were saddened to lose the requirement. We were proud of what we did and proud to uphold professionalism in the greatest form. Our state still doesn't offer ASN or ADN programs - you need to go to Minnesota or other states to get these degrees. We just opened the doors to allow ADN or ASN's from other states to work in ND if that is what they choose to do. Nurses in ND continue to strive to be BSN/BAN's and that is a great accomplishment and feeling. Why are people so scared of that?

North Dakota did change their requirement for requiring a bachelors and it saddens me deeply. Why can't we be proud of higher standards of education? As a nation we promote education and working hard for what you believe in. Why are we downplaying people's time and effort for a higher degree?? I wish people wouldn't say that and ADN is the same as a Bachelor's because it just isn't ...they are two different degrees...plain and simple. It seems like those who choose ADN degrees want to downplay the BSN and why? What is the problem here? If you think they are the same then try to obtain one. The Bachelor's degree covers the entire Bio/pyscho/social areas that a well rounded nurse needs to have to provide total care to the multi dimensional patients and families that we as nurses see on a daily basis. BAN/BSN's don't only get this degree to go into management...this is a myth. Some choose to further their goals and dive into management but not all should be lumped in this category. BSN/BAN should be the minimum standard, like Canada and like New York to promote more educated, well rounded people who devote their passion and life to making people feel better. I wish more states had the balls to stand up and promote higher learning!! kudos to NEW YORK and I wish North Dakota would have upheld its standards. What amazes me is that teachers now have to further their education even more (4-6 years with Bachelors to Masters degrees) to educate our young but as nurses who provide total care and hold lives in their hands can easily and quickly know all they need to know in 2 years??? who are we trying to fool???

kudos and right on BOB! I finally have met someone to admire for deep thoughts. A Bachelors is a great way to set high standards for the care of our patients.

Tweety .....Why are you pursuing you BSN? I am just curious? or nosy??

Sometimes taking the easier path at the time isn't really what gets you ahead! ADN programs main goal is to train you to pass the NCLEX fast- BSN programs teach you critical thinking and have much more content rolled into a program rather than just the bare essentials that can get you a degree as fast as possible. I'm sorry that the state you are in has poor passing rates for universities. I come from ND where they just lowered the standards for nursing and it comes as a big dissappointment for our whole state. We required 4 year degrees for all RN's and we didn't have the shortages that you see in other states. Our universities across the state held 91% and higher - and we don't have any 2-year ADN or 3-year diploma programs. If people take pride in their education and want to be the best that they can be by achieving greater goals than they should not be criticized. Only in a mostly woman's profession would we try to put down people with more education. If we want to be seen as professionals and we want the benefits of the great pay that comes with a professional degree than we have to have people who want to put the extra time and effort into achieving a bachelor's degree. ADN's would not be seeing the pay that they are without bachelor's degree nurses in the mix. When reading every one's view on this its repetative over and over on how the ADN is easier - less time consuming and cheaper. Is that how we should view education? Go for the cheapest and easiest way to get through ??? Don't think that if the ADN programs dissappeared that the nurses would dissappear....people go into nursing as a calling, or as a caring way to give back to the community. If all programs were BSN programs it would just be a standard and if you wanted it bad enough as a goal then you would just accomplish it! I sacrificed time and energy for my education and set goals at a young age. I'm sorry if in your late 30's you are just figuring out what to do with your life. But take some advice the easiest and cheapest way isn't always the best route. Kind of like taking the path less traveled scenerio?? I don't want to criticize but it gets old having to defend bachelor's degrees to people who just want an easy way out and that have to ***** and complain about how hard it is to get in and be on a waiting list. If you had to choose a nurse to take care of you or your loved one you would want someone who strives to be the best they can be - the one who has the most training and education and good bedside manner....not the one who took the easy way out because it was cheaper and took less time to complete.