PhD vs. DNP

UVA Grad Nursing · Aug 20, 2009

Although there will be those with DNP degrees in faculty roles, the objective of the DNP is not to prepare faculty. It is to prepare the top level of nursing practitioner who can

Here in my state of Virginia, DNP graduates are working as faculty -- but at different types of schools. Colleges that emphasize teaching (and that have no research programs in any departments) have hired DNP grads into tenure track positions. The Universities with research obligations at the University level (such as my own) have PHD-prepared faculty on the tenure track and DNP prepared faculty in the yearly renewable contract category.

At UVA, nearly all of the didactic instructors are PHD-prepared. DNP-prepared faculty serve as clinical faculty. But keep in mind that we are a Research Intensive High Level (Carnagie classification) and do not depict the faculty roles and responsibilities at the other 600+ schools of nursing in the country.

I encourage people thinking of the DNP/PHD choices to not focus on the word "research" since it often has unpleasant connotations from a BSN class years ago. Rather, I encourage people to think of the term "nursing discovery". Do you like making the discoveries, creating pilot studies, or adapting existing "discoveries" in new ways to new populations/cohorts of people? Or do you prefer taking what you read in the literature (articles, conference papers, etc) and applying these directly to your practice arena (providing feedback to the designers/authors that the study works or does not). One degree prepares people to generate new knowledge; the other is grounded in evidence-based practice.

IMO, "nursing discovery" needs a team approach --- those who create, those who apply this to practice, those who provide feedback, and those who tweak the initial creation. "Discovery", whether it comes as NIH-funded studies with PIs and IRBs, or come as an individual person using evidence to change his/her own practice, is important. For you, my advice is to look within and see where in this "discovery loop" you think you will be happiest.

llg, PhD, RN · Aug 20, 2009

Great post, UVA Grad Nursing. I agree with you most heartily.

As some of you know, I have a PhD but work for a hospital. Back when I got my doctorate, the DNP didn't exist. So that was a decision I didn't have to make. However, there were some DSN, DNS, etc. programs around that emphasized practice over academic research. I chose the PhD for a couple of reasons:

1. The PhD would give me the most flexibility. I doubted people would think I my education was insufficient for a job in the practice arena. I seem to have been right about that. I don't hear of people being denied positions because they have a PhD rather than a more practice-oriented degree. However, as the "highest" doctoral degree, the PhD is preferred for some positions (such as graduate education, etc.)

2. I love things like philosophy, theory, etc. and I knew I would learn more about those types of things in a PhD program than any other type of program.

Either way, a doctoral education is a major committment -- kind'a like a marriage. It's also an identity issue. What do you want your career identity to be. You should go where your heart is and not "settle" for anything that doesn't match what your heart is telling you.

So ... I have a PhD and work for a hospital full time ... and do a little teaching at a local university part time. My "calling" is to enourage the development of academic interest and scholarly work into practice environments -- and to increase the sensitivity of academic environments to practice realities. I have always felt myself "on the bridge" between the two worlds and I guess that is where I belong. That is where my heart is.

Where do you belong? Where is your heart?

Moogie · Aug 21, 2009

I encourage people thinking of the DNP/PHD choices to not focus on the word "research" since it often has unpleasant connotations from a BSN class years ago. Rather, I encourage people to think of the term "nursing discovery". Do you like making the discoveries, creating pilot studies, or adapting existing "discoveries" in new ways to new populations/cohorts of people? Or do you prefer taking what you read in the literature (articles, conference papers, etc) and applying these directly to your practice arena (providing feedback to the designers/authors that the study works or does not). One degree prepares people to generate new knowledge; the other is grounded in evidence-based practice.
IMO, "nursing discovery" needs a team approach --- those who create, those who apply this to practice, those who provide feedback, and those who tweak the initial creation. "Discovery", whether it comes as NIH-funded studies with PIs and IRBs, or come as an individual person using evidence to change his/her own practice, is important. For you, my advice is to look within and see where in this "discovery loop" you think you will be happiest.

In all honesty, I am not fond of statistics but I do feel challenged by making discoveries, reinforcing previous research, looking at new ways to apply previous research, and looking at nursing theory. I enjoy nursing theory.

The idea of writing grant proposals and getting funding for research seems daunting to me right now, but it's also appealing. I haven't done this before. Could I? I like the possibility.

And if research isn't what I want, I could always teach at a small college that does not have an emphasis on research.

Thank you.

Moogie · Aug 21, 2009

Great post, UVA Grad Nursing. I agree with you most heartily.
As some of you know, I have a PhD but work for a hospital. Back when I got my doctorate, the DNP didn't exist. So that was a decision I didn't have to make. However, there were some DSN, DNS, etc. programs around that emphasized practice over academic research. I chose the PhD for a couple of reasons:
1. The PhD would give me the most flexibility. I doubted people would think I my education was insufficient for a job in the practice arena. I seem to have been right about that. I don't hear of people being denied positions because they have a PhD rather than a more practice-oriented degree. However, as the "highest" doctoral degree, the PhD is preferred for some positions (such as graduate education, etc.)
2. I love things like philosophy, theory, etc. and I knew I would learn more about those types of things in a PhD program than any other type of program.
Either way, a doctoral education is a major committment -- kind'a like a marriage. It's also an identity issue. What do you want your career identity to be. You should go where your heart is and not "settle" for anything that doesn't match what your heart is telling you.
So ... I have a PhD and work for a hospital full time ... and do a little teaching at a local university part time. My "calling" is to enourage the development of academic interest and scholarly work into practice environments -- and to increase the sensitivity of academic environments to practice realities. I have always felt myself "on the bridge" between the two worlds and I guess that is where I belong. That is where my heart is.
Where do you belong? Where is your heart?

Thank you for you insightful, thoughtful reply.

Like you, I also enjoy philosophy and theory. I enjoy discussing ethics and looking at the bioethical challenges we face with increased health care technology. My perfect job would be to facilitate students to learn critical thinking skills, to help them expand their horizons and challenge their ways of thinking about the world. I've been blessed with one or two educators per program (ADN, BSN, part of an MSN) who have done this for me and I thought they had the greatest jobs in the world.

I have wanted to be a nurse educator in an academic setting ever since my first semester in my AD program. I had amazing, inspirational instructors who enjoyed their work---and I wanted to be like them. Life had other plans, however, and I took quite a few years off to raise my children. But once I got back into nursing, the old dream was back as well.

I did a year of adjunct teaching in a clinical setting and then a year as an instructor, teaching sophomore and junior level skills labs and clinicals. It was tough because I was trying to get through grad school, was a single parent, and had other challenges. I ended up leaving the job and the grad program because I got remarried and moved away. Now, a couple of years after the move, I've done almost a year in LTC but nothing else is on the horizon. I want to go back to school because my heart is in teaching.

It's so awesome that you have found your niche. I am not sure that same niche would be right for me and that's okay. Before I decided to go back to school for an advanced degree in nursing, I thought about going to seminary. In fact, I'd thought about it, off and on, for several years. But I don't feel a particular call. My son felt a call to the ministry this past spring when he was doing a semester abroad in Asia. When he discussed his feelings and I reflected on his experience and mine, I realized that I do not feel a similar call. But teaching nursing---that's what I want to do with my life. That's my calling.

Thank you again for helping me with this. You are right. I don't want to settle for anything less than what I really want. Thanks.

UVA Grad Nursing · Aug 21, 2009

In all honesty, I am not fond of statistics but I do feel challenged by making discoveries, reinforcing previous research, looking at new ways to apply previous research, and looking at nursing theory. I enjoy nursing theory.
The idea of writing grant proposals and getting funding for research seems daunting to me right now, but it's also appealing. I haven't done this before. Could I? I like the possibility.
And if research isn't what I want, I could always teach at a small college that does not have an emphasis on research.
Thank you.

Moogie:

Not all research is statistics based. Both qualitative and historical studies have added much to nursing science. Data comes in a variety of shades, so the analysis of data and findings can be equally complex. The PhD nursing program at my University is a moderate size (the census is 42 this fall), and over 1/3 are doing non-quantitative dissertation projects.

In addition, you might decide that quantitative methods are not so bad after all. I hated math in my Bachelors degree --- but fell in love with stats in my PhD work (thanks to a gifted professor and the development of SPSS for Windows). So much in love that I taught statistics to Masters in Public Policy students at my prior institution.

llg, PhD, RN · Aug 21, 2009

Wow. I like you guys. (I just wanted to say that.)

I support everything that has been said in this thread. Thanks for all of your insight, UVA Grad Nursing. And Moogie, I think you are going to be just fine: you seem to have great insight into yourself and that's what you need to choose the path that is right for you.

PhD's do not have to be all about statistics (though you might find you like them more than you thought). A lot of people do qualitative research. Personally, I like it all and was lucky to attend a school that allowed me a chance to experience quantitative, qualitative, and philosphical research. I worked as a research/teaching assistant for the stats classes, conducted a qualitative mini-study as a student, and did philosophical inquiry for my dissertation. I guess I am really most turned on about looking at a topic from all angles.

Oh well ... I better go. Good luck with whatever you decide!

llg

Moogie · Aug 27, 2009

Follow up here:

I had an excellent discussion with the chair of the DNP program. Together we determined that the DNP program offered by her university is probably not the best choice for my career and academic goals---but she gave me some excellent suggestions in terms of a Plan B in case I don't get accepted into the PhD program of my choice. So nice to get a straightforward, honest answer from someone! :up:

I feel very positive about my future plans. I am sure I will still be a bit hyper until I find out for sure if I am accepted----I HATE being in limbo---but I feel good about my prospects, regardless of where I end up for my continued education. (Cross-posted on the other forum as well.)

llg, PhD, RN · Aug 27, 2009

Good luck to you, Moogie.

I understand about that stress issue. After I applied to my PhD program, had my interview, etc. I was told I would get an answer in about a month. In reality, it took about 2 months. During that last month I went crazy -- and bought a bright purple suit that was a size too small in which to give a big presentation (wrongly expecting it to fit by then). Not only that, I bought shoes and purse and had them dyed to match!

That was a bizarre outfit I never wore. They stayed in my closet for years as a reminder of my stress level. I laughed every time I saw them.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Aug 29, 2009

llg- you cracked me up with that purple suit story. :rotfl:

When I got my acceptance letter, I couldn't believe it. I remember wondering what in the heck was wrong with them, that they would accept riff-raff like me in their program? :chuckle

Moogie- FWIW, I really enjoy statistics now. You may see it in a different light, once you are in the PhD program. Sometimes, you have to find your niche there, too. My focus is in social research, so I take my stats in the sociology dept. at my institution, and I love it! We do use SPSS as well. ;-)

But, as others have stated, you may find qualitative inquiry is your niche. If you know marachne here, she is doing a really cool qualitative study for her dissertation. Maybe you can PM her for some sage advice regarding that route as well?

I also find llg & UVA to be two of the best mentors here you can find, as you do your soul searching before and after entry into the PhD program. You can take anything they tell you to the bank, IMHO.

As for myself, you already know I'm gunning for you. Don't let those 3 letters, and fears of the process scare you. You have a good head on your shoulders.