PhD vs. DNP

[Moogie]

Would greatly appreciate any comments, insight, thoughts on a PhD in nursing vs. a DNP. I realize that the DNP is a practice doctorate with less emphasis on research than the PhD. I have applied to a PhD program but won't know if I am admitted for several months. There's a DNP program that is closer and the dean tells me that a DNP would be good preparation for nursing education.

Hmmmmm. I thought the DNP was for nurse practitioners and clinical experts. I've taught clinicals, enjoyed teaching clinicals, but I don't necessarily see myself teaching clinicals the rest of my career.

I also am not sure I want to spend the rest of my career doing research rather than teaching. Although---I do have certain areas of interest and could get into research, especially regarding end of life care, spirituality and gerontology.

My passion is teaching. I think it's important to teach nurses to think as well as to do. I see myself teaching at the BSN level, won't rule out graduate level. I see myself teaching nursing theory, ethics, policy and finance---even pharmacology or physiology.

Any thoughts? TIA!

Cross-posted on the graduate student board as well.

[VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN]

I think you've answered your own question, Moogie. Go for the PhD. Of course the dean wants you in his/her program for the DNP and may "stretch" the truth a bit to get you to apply.

[elkpark]

The PhD is not focused on research as opposed to teaching -- most PhD-prepared nurses do both. There is also nothing to prevent you from continue to practice clinically (as an RN) once you have a PhD. One significant difference between the two degrees (DNP and PhD) is that the PhD doesn't prepare you for a clinical advanced practice role -- if that's something you want, the DNP is the way to go. On the other hand, I have heard discussion about whether or not the DNP will be acceptable/recognized for full tenure at a lot of universities -- the concensus seems to be that DNP-prepared people will always be "second-class citizens," like MSN-prepared faculty are, at major universities, which only recognize the PhD as a "real" doctorate (that was the case at the last university at which I taught). If that's a concern for you, the PhD is your best choice.

[llg, PhD, RN]

See my response in the grad student forum. But I agree with the others ... If you want an academic career, get the academic degree. A PhD is considered the higher of the two degrees, academically speaking. It is old and well-established across disciplines as the appropriate degree for upper-level faculty and other academics. It's the "safest" choice.

[Moogie]

The PhD is not focused on research as opposed to teaching -- most PhD-prepared nurses do both. There is also nothing to prevent you from continue to practice clinically (as an RN) once you have a PhD. One significant difference between the two degrees (DNP and PhD) is that the PhD doesn't prepare you for a clinical advanced practice role -- if that's something you want, the DNP is the way to go. On the other hand, I have heard discussion about whether or not the DNP will be acceptable/recognized for full tenure at a lot of universities -- the concensus seems to be that DNP-prepared people will always be "second-class citizens," like MSN-prepared faculty are, at major universities, which only recognize the PhD as a "real" doctorate (that was the case at the last university at which I taught). If that's a concern for you, the PhD is your best choice.

I guess I didn't think before I wrote that about research vs. teaching. The graduate level faculties of schools with which I am familiar were very research-oriented, sometimes to the point that the professors who were considered the best researchers were not necessarily the best teachers. These were state universities, one at a major medical center and another close enough that they wanted to compete. As I think about what I want to do with the rest of my life, I find research a bit more intriguing. I am not fond of statistics but I could focus more on qualitative rather than quantitative research. I would like to learn more about both. I also really "get into" nursing theory and, while I doubt that Moogie's Grand Theory for Nursing and Life will ever be more than a fantasy, it would be gratifying to be able to contribute something meaningful to the body of nursing knowledge.

I really don't want a clinical role in the future. I am 50 and have recently been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. I don't have the stamina to work the floors; I'm not sure if I would have the physical stamina to work as a nurse practitioner. I don't want to teach clinicals and I don't want to try to combine teaching with trying to work in a nurse-run clinic. I do love contact with patients and their families and have been blessed to have been able to do floor nursing for a good chunk of my career. But it's time to get real. What can I realistically expect to do when I have issues with chronic pain and fatigue? I can write and I can think. The more I study, the less fibro fog I have. But when I'm active, even trying to stand eight hours at a med cart, I hurt and get tired. It's time for something else.

You raise a good point about DNP as "second class faculty". While at this juncture, I can't say where I'll be in five years so I don't know if tenure will be important to me, what is important is that I will be employable. I think I will be a stronger job candidate with a PhD than with a DNP---at least for what I want in my career.

Thank you all for your insight and advice!

[dorimar, BSN, RN]

It sounds to me as if you should follow your heart.

[dorimar, BSN, RN]

Wow...

more employable...

I truly never thought this would be the deciding factor for leaders in this profession. But it is the reality I guess, and what makes it what it is.

[Moogie]

Wow...

more employable...

I truly never thought this would be the deciding factor for leaders in this profession. But it is the reality I guess, and what makes it what it is.

I guess I don't see the issue from quite that perspective. Going for a doctorate is an investment in terms of time, money and work. I'm not independently wealthy so I can't just go to school for personal enlightenment. At my age and with a chronic pain and fatigue disorder that limits my physical strength, stamina and levels of energy, I need to be reasonably assured that the educational path I take will be the most employable in terms of the goals I wish to meet. I can't just go back to school, find out that I can't get a teaching job in a school of nursing with my degree, and go back to working bedside. At this juncture I don't feel I can afford to make a mistake in furthering my education or my career in nursing is essentially done.

I wanted to make sure that I was not getting bad advice from a dean who "assured" me that the DNP is perfectly adequate for didactic teaching in baccalaureate and even graduate schools of nursing. From the posters who have answered me here, it seems that the dean may be telling me what she thinks I want to hear. Truth is? I want to know the truth. If this degree over here will help me achieve my goals but that degree over there won't, I guess my decision is easy. But if the first school says they're a good fit and the second one says so as well, it's up to me to figure out what's really true and fits my needs.

I should think this is a logical way to plan my career, especially after it was interrupted by children, several moves, a divorce and a remarriage.

[psychonaut]

My university recently hired a DNP to our curriculum. I believe part of the reason involves a planned switch to DNP curriculum some time in the (near?) future.

DNP at my school is tenure track, and the individual is making >100k/year (per public records). Is this a unique phenomenon? This is a public university, offering BSN, FNP and PhD degrees.

[llg, PhD, RN]

I think lots of DNP's will get great jobs teaching in universities. However, they will never have quite the same level of opportunities for jobs that are more research-intensive -- such as being a faculty member in PhD programs. Also, the DNP will always be considered the "lower" of the two degrees and have a little lower prestige in the academic world.

All that doesn't mean the people should not get a DNP. There are many different schools out there and they will need faculty members at levels for the various programs they offer. There will be lots of good jobs for DNP's ... but if your interest is in teaching the research/theory/philosophy etc. courses, particulary at the graduate level ... you might have a better chance of getting those jobs with a PhD because that is the content emphasized in PhD programs. And I doubt schools will deny PhD's many opportunities because they have PhD's and not DNP's.

Also remember that the DNP is a new degree and the programs and expectations of the graduates vary significantly across the country. So, what is true in one location may not be true at another. It will take a few years for the wrinkles to be worked out with this new type of academic preparation. Right now, we can only speculate. No one can say much for sure.

[Moogie]

I think it's perfectly logical to have a DNP teaching in a DNP or other NP program. However, that isn't my area of interest or expertise. I would hate to get into the "wrong" program only to find that it won't help me achieve my personal and professional goals. I think for someone who has a burning desire to be at the most advanced clinical level of nursing practice, the DNP could be an excellent degree. But I don't think it's right for me.

I really appreciate the input here as everyone's opinions have been extremely helpful in making my decision. I honestly don't think it's necessarily a question of which degree is "better" but which is better for each individual.

[Moogie]

Follow up here:

I had an excellent discussion with the chair of the DNP program. Together we determined that the DNP program offered by her university is probably not the best choice for my career and academic goals---but she gave me some excellent suggestions in terms of a Plan B in case I don't get accepted into the PhD program of my choice. So nice to get a straightforward, honest answer from someone!

I feel very positive about my future plans. I am sure I will still be a bit hyper until I find out for sure if I am accepted----I HATE being in limbo---but I feel good about my prospects, regardless of where I end up for my continued education. (Cross-posted on the other forum as well.)