this thread was created from posts in the thread titled "ways to tell if someone is a nurse" in the humor forum. this was done to facilitate discussion on this topic (pharmacutical freebies) without derailing the other thread.
md terminator is not the actual starter of the this thread (i hope you don't mind dave), it only appears so as his was the post that raised this new topic and seemed like a good place to start from.
-nancy
how about this?
the other day i was in office depot and saw all these piles of post-it-notes. then in another aisle there were ink pens?
you mean these things aren't exclusive to drug reps? i can't imagine somone paying for post-it-notes or a pen, and them not have a logo from zoloft, kadian or concerta!
::shhheeze!:: the things people will waste money on!
Which is EXACTLY what the marketing reps count on.
As for "Having so much time" I work fulltime, I am chairing one committee at work, and heavily involved with another one, I am a full time student getting ready to be a full time grad student, I have 5 kids and I volunteer. Add to that a heavy dose of sarcoidosis and I don't take it lightly when someone says "I have no time"
It's all about what we choose really. If we are committed to something, then we make choices that reflect that.
Pharmaceutical marketing is VERY insidious. These guys wrote the book on successful marketing strategies and they KNOW how to use it!!! Of COURSE they make meals convenient - they know that people will not turn them down and then there will be an emotional debt created.
Ok I am not looking to fight because I really have not studied or researched the topic you are promoting. But that is exactly what you are doing is promoting adverse advertising against Pharmaceutical companies.
As to your time and how you spend it I was being serious not sarcastic. I am glad you have time to devote to issues you feel are important especially now that you have informed me of all the other responsibilities you have that require involvement full-time!
I only work one job and only have two kids and one wife and still can't find time to do anything but work and take care of my family (except a for a little time on the ole PC LOL)
Number one the nurses that eat that free lunch have very little to do with what medications the doctor will prescribe. Doctors are like any other person on the planet they too have free will to choose.
To your second concern you stated yourself that "These guys wrote the book on successful marketing strategies and they KNOW how to use it!!!" And well isn't that what America and free trade are really all about... "build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door" not sure who said it. And yes you too have the right to your opinion and your comittees and your NO FREE LUNCH website!
That is what America is really all about freedom to choose
You say NO FREE LUNCH...
"I say Let them eat Cake!!!" another quote of uncertain origin
No fights being picked - just letting folks know that they really aren't getting this for free - if you were to do any research on this at all, you would feel the same way. The money that pharm companies spend on cruises, sporting events, lavish trips and vacations and dinners - not just a few lunches and some pens - has to be paid for by someone, and we are the ones paying for it.
And it isn't just docs offices who get the freebies. It's everyone from government personnel on down the line through hospital admins and finally us little guys at the bottom.
Billions of dollars a year get spent on this stuff, and you can bet the pharm companies are giving nothing away for free. When you own a business, you factor in every dollar spent on everything involved in the R&D, manufature and marketing of that product - be it a pill or a pc. Now it's one thing to say "I am choosing not to buy a certain car or a computer because they spend too much on marketing" but you can't always say that when it comes to a much needed drug that your life depends on. When I worked home health I would have old folks on 5 meds and they really needed ALL of them - I would have to just call the doc and ask him which 2 were most important because that was all the patient could afford to have filled.
As for the point about lunches having little effect on prescribed meds....studies have proven that statement wrong.
If folks wanna eat cake - fine, but don't do it on MY dime!
Iin an earlier post [/b] YOU wrote [/b] that Pharmaceutical companies SPEND 59% of their profits on marketing. Now you are posting that they spend another large percentage on sending people on vacations and cruises.. after hearing all of this it is my opinion that it may just be the Pharmaceutical companies that are keeping America alive as a free market Nation.
Originally posted by gauge14iv
No fights being picked - just letting folks know that they really aren't getting this for free - if you were to do any research on this at all, you would feel the same way. The money that pharm companies spend on cruises, sporting events, lavish trips and vacations and dinners - not just a few lunches and some pens - has to be paid for by someone, and we are the ones paying for it.
And it isn't just docs offices who get the freebies. It's everyone from government personnel on down the line through hospital admins and finally us little guys at the bottom.
Billions of dollars a year get spent on this stuff, and you can bet the pharm companies are giving nothing away for free. When you own a business, you factor in every dollar spent on everything involved in the R&D, manufature and marketing of that product - be it a pill or a pc. Now it's one thing to say "I am choosing not to buy a certain car or a computer because they spend too much on marketing" but you can't always say that when it comes to a much needed drug that your life depends on. When I worked home health I would have old folks on 5 meds and they really needed ALL of them - I would have to just call the doc and ask him which 2 were most important because that was all the patient could afford to have filled.
As for the point about lunches having little effect on prescribed meds....studies have proven that statement wrong.
What I actually said was that the nurses eating the free lunch have littel effect on what drugs the Doctor will prescribe. Doctors have free will to choose etc.
If folks wanna eat cake - fine, but don't do it on MY dime!
It seems to me that everything you say ends up supporting exactly what is going on for instance "Billions of dollars a year get spent on this stuff, and you can bet the pharm companies are giving nothing away for free. When you own a business, you factor in every dollar spent on everything involved in the R&D, manufature and marketing of that product - be it a pill or a pc."
If those billions of dollars weren't being spent where would America be?
Do you think that all of the industries that are benefitting from the money spent by Pharm co.s are upset by this?
As for it being your dime you can solve that by one of two ways... quit paying taxes of course you run the risk of being audited and found guilty of crimes...or quit working become a low income individual and live on our Dime!
You said yourself that you didnt know much about this topic - I suggest you do some further reading. there are a number of research articles available at http://www.nofreelunch.org for your perusal.
Sorry you you see this as something to raise your hackles over. It isn't. It is a patient advocacy issue and thats the bend I am coming from. If you want to take it personally, thats your business.
You might want to check out the thread on big business and government.
Those billions you say pharm companies are dumping into the econmy would still be dumped into the economy, and people would still have their medications too. As it is now, they dont have the money OR the drugs...and their insurance coverage is rapidly declining in coverage and climbing in costs and copays.
Enough of the arguing. If this is something you would prefer not to discuss, then don't. The tread was started for interested parties who wish to contribute something of value to the discussion. If anger is all you have to contribute then please do it elsewhere.
would have it you have invited me to discuss this topic and I have. My hackles aren't up I have simply been reading the information you provided and making informed opinions from your information.
As for you saying that the billions would still be spent that doesn't quite ring true for me. ON the one hand you complain that Pharm Co.s are the reason for increased costs. One the other you turn around and say they are spending billions on development R&D and promotion. I really don't see how you can have it both ways. either they are spending money creating a healthy economy or they greedy and only in this for profit.
As for research I will find my own thank you, it has been my experience that people with such tunnel vision on a certain topic have only their veiws posted and available without fair consideration to the opposing view.
I may spend a little of my precious PC time looking further into this topic but probably not too much because I am afraid I would possibly become an advocate for the other side and may even beging to look into a career as a Pharmaceutical Rep myself.
But I am happy being one of the bury my head in the sand types and only get worked up about issues such as where my daughters are spending their evenings and with who... little things that really don't fit into the big picture just my little wallet sized life.
I wouldnt pretend to know something about CCU without doing some further research first, we all have our own areas of expertise. This just happens to be one of mine. I think you will find the available materials (wheter from nofreelunch or elsewhere) quite facinating in any case. There was an article called "The case of the little purple pill" awhile back that was great. I think it was published in the New York Times. The link may be on no free lunch. I am not sure.
As AARP grows in membership over the coming years, we will all be hearing more and more about this issue. And it is one the AG in Washington is already looking at. They were taking commentary last fall on the topic. Who knows what changes will come around the bend? While pharm companies and their charges for drugs may not be 100% responsible for increases in the money they hold out of our checks every month, it is in part responsible and it is one area that something can be done about.
It's funny that some of the older medications that we need so badly (Wydase for example) are no longer made because no profit comes from them. Sure prices of that or other drugs can be marked up enough to compensate, but when the difference in cost now hos to compensate for TV advertising, and cruise ship trips for congressmen, then I have a problem with that. If drugs were optional and not a life preserving necessity I would feel differently. It's all about choice, and drugs are something many people have no choice about.
Thank You for agreeing to disagree. This sometimes the best you can hope for. I will do a little research. I am not happy about the rising cost of medications or healthcare so on this we can agree. I also feel that it will take some major Governmental changes. However as has been seen in the past one can never gauge logically what might happen in an illogical system where lobbyists have the ear of the politicians more often than the voting public. I wish you good luck in your endeavors and beleive you have the ability to make a difference as long as you understand all things come in their own time.
Several years ago the AMA took a strong position againt pharm co's giving "gifts" etc to physicians. Conflict of interest was the number one thing sited, it isn't ethical etc.
The fact remains that when these reps bring free lunch to the office staff they also bring a large number of samples of their medications that the physician can then use to give his patients a price break or to supply meds to a patient that could otherwise not afford them.
The pharm company's also all have a program for indigent patients that the physician can get his patient involved in to receive free meds if they can't afford them otherwise.
Yes there are a great deal of things that need to be changed regarding pharm companies and many other aspects about the cost of healthcare in America. Is a nurse refusing to eat lunch going to have an impact on these issues? Not on your life.
Am I as a physician going to refuse to allow drug reps to detail my office and provide lunch for my staff? Not on your life.
I will however not accept inappropriate gifts as outlined by the AMA.
Why not lobby for legislation to make advertising of prescription drugs (which is where the biggest portion of the marketing funds are going anyway) illegal instead of berating the nursing staff?
You might also want to do some research regarding what your webpage has to say about Lipitor.
And don't forget that the biggest step as a country that we could all take to decrease medical cost is to stop smoking and lose some weight!!!
Why not lobby for legislation to make advertising of prescription drugs (which is where the biggest portion of the marketing funds are going anyway) illegal instead of berating the nursing staff?
NOW we're talking !!! THIS has been one of my biggest peeves EVER. It just goes all OVER me to hear these ads telling you to "ask your Doctor about such and such".... I keep thinking since WHEN do patients tell/ask the docs what THEY think would be the proper med, instead of the other way around. And yet due to the inundation of these ads , the "power of suggestion" and suddenly this has become the "norm".
It sickens me. And the big pharm co's are laughing all the way to the bank.
It used to be you'd have a good VARIETY of commercials on TV... seems like the past ten years, however, at least every third ad is some big drug co. pushing what THEY think you MUST HAVE.......
I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that mass advertising of Rx's needs to be reduced - that is where the whole things needs to start. However, when one rep brings in lunch at least once a week for months on end, then that needs to be looked at too. Occasioanl is another thing. Samples are great too, but they are frequently handed out on a whim and/or utilized for the personal use of staff and their families. (in my experience anyways)
Will one nurse not eating lunch make a difference? No - not to the rep. and not to the drug company. But one thing it has done in my unit is raise awareness of the issue where there previously was none. I don't make a stink about it, I just don't eat it. And I don't take the freebies etc. Sometimes someone will ask why and I will tell them - We don't really see the drug reps in our place as often as we see the formula reps. Babies have to eat and formula is expensive. Yes, everyone should breastfeed but that isn't the reality and we all know it.
It is well known that nearly every medical personnel who works with new mothers can get all the formula they need shipped right to their homes by the manufacturers for as long as they need it at no cost for their own babies. A Perk? Maybe - but hardly a gift costing less than 25.00 which is what my facility says is the maximum we can accept. Who pays for that? We all do - in taxes that pay for higher formula prices to WIC and other governemnt agencies, and in higher formula prices when we buy it ourselves.
It's the utter excess that is an issue with me. Some marketing expenses are reasonable and acceptable, some are out of line, innappropriate and unethical. THOSE are the ones I have the beef with!
And yet due to the inundation of these ads , the "power of suggestion" and suddenly this has become the "norm".
CCU NRS
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