Pa None Smoking!

[LisaG21]

PA just passed that it will be a none smoking state and resturants and bars have to comply within 2 years!! :balloons: WOOOHOOOO:balloons:

[LydiaNN]

I know this doesn't belong here, and I'll look and see if I can find where to post it, but I came back to edit a message and turns out I can't. I just got a reply box...

[Someday-C.R.N.A.]

Ah, yes, you have the right to do whatever you please on your property, with the proviso that you have put into your own post... as long as it's not against the law. If smoking in public places is illegal where you live, how do you figure that you can smoke there just because you happen to own the place?

Well, I guess I would figure I could smoke there because I own the place, and that would make it MY private property.

If I want to open a tavern and cater to people who smoke, why should I not be able to do that? I put a big sign out by the door stating that this is a smoking establishment, and make it very clear to everybody - potential employees and customers alike, what type of atmosphere I will be providing.

Nobody is forced to patronize my establishment, nor is anybody forced to work there.

Where's the problem? Why should this be illegal? .......Because some people don't like it?

Plenty of people don't like adult book stores, strip clubs, Starbucks, the DMV, etc, etc. Should they all be illegal too?

My choosing to operate a smoking tavern does not infringe on the rights of anybody else. My customers, and employees alike, are choosing to be there. If a bartender doesn't like a smokey work environment, then that particular person should choose to be employed elsewhere, or perhaps look into a different line of work.

Nobody has a RIGHT to patronize my establishment, nor does anybody have a RIGHT to work there.

If you can't handle some of the "icky" things you have to deal with as a nurse (for example), then perhaps nursing isn't a fit for you, and likewise with bartenders and smoke. (Atleast in smoking establishments).

Do you believe yourself to be free to commit other crimes there, too?

This doesn't even deserve an answer.

[LydiaNN]

Well, I guess I would figure I could smoke there because I own the place, and that would make it MY private property.

If I want to open a tavern and cater to people who smoke, why should I not be able to do that? I put a big sign out by the door stating that this is a smoking establishment, and make it very clear to everybody - potential employees and customers alike, what type of atmosphere I will be providing.

Nobody is forced to patronize my establishment, nor is anybody forced to work there.

Where's the problem? Why should this be illegal? .......Because some people don't like it?

Plenty of people don't like adult book stores, strip clubs, Starbucks, the DMV, etc, etc. Should they all be illegal too?

My choosing to operate a smoking tavern does not infringe on the rights of anybody else. My customers, and employees alike, are choosing to be there. If a bartender doesn't like a smokey work environment, then that particular person should choose to be employed elsewhere, or perhaps look into a different line of work.

Nobody has a RIGHT to patronize my establishment, nor does anybody have a RIGHT to work there.

If you can't handle some of the "icky" things you have to deal with as a nurse (for example), then perhaps nursing isn't a fit for you, and likewise with bartenders and smoke. (Atleast in smoking establishments).

This doesn't even deserve an answer.

Okay, the last part of your post is confusing. I hope that you aren't suggesting that nursing isn't a fit for me. Cause if you are, dang, I just spent twenty years of my life in the wrong field. I suppose you aren't, but the point that I made wasn't whether it is a good idea for someone who can't tolerate smoke to work in a place where it is permitted. The point was that since second hand smoke is a known toxin, it shouldn't be permitted in workplaces. And, increasingly, it isn't. We still have bars here in our great state, and no one (including the owners) have been allowed to smoke there for years. I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to smoke in your own building if you don't live in a place that prohibits. I question why you would think that owning the buidling gives you some right to smoke in it if you live in a place where it is illegal. Laws apply even on one's own property. You really didn't address what makes you think this one wouldn't.

[Someday-C.R.N.A.]

No, I wasn't referring to you in that part. I was just trying to make a point. That point was that not everybody is cut out for every line of work, and nobody is being forced to work in a smokey bar.

For the record, smoking bans haven't been put in place here yet.

Why should I be able to smoke in MY building?? Because it is MINE!!

Some people like going to smokey bars. They are fully aware of the health risks, but choose to patronize these establishments anyway. Around here right now, they are free to do so. Who is that hurting? Who's rights are being infringed?

I'm all for smoke-free restaurants and even smoke-free taverns, but not as a result of another worthless law passed by a hugely over-inflated government with (apparently) nothing better to do than micromanage our daily lives.

Sooner or later the government will be telling people what type of music can be played in their establishments, what their thermostat needs to be set at, and what type of things they are "allowed" to hang on the walls.

I should have the freedom to run my business in any way I choose, and you (the public) should have the freedom to go elsewhere if you don't care for the environment in my business.

**I'm not saying that I should be able to smoke in my bar if it were in an area that restricted it. I'm saying it shouldn't be restricted by law at all . .......Just to clear that up.

[LydiaNN]

If no smoking ban is in place, then of course you can smoke in the building that you own. Most any other one, too. I guess that since such a point wouldn't need to be debated, I assumed the discussion was geared towards why you wouldn't be able to smoke in your own tavern if such a ban were to be put into place.

[dreatx]

And what about the people who work in these establishments? Is there some reason they shouldn't be covered by OSHA protections? Are they meant to choose between making a living and not being exposed to a toxin that may make them cause them discomfort, asthma, allergies, or even worse, die a horrible death? We've had a smoking ban in bars for years in this state, and guess what? People get used to it.

Just as we choose to do most everything else we do in life, I imagine people choose those jobs. That really is an appalling argument because these bans do cuase some bars to go under so please don't act as though you care about those workers since many of them find themsleves out of work after these bans and business owners lose their businesses after these bans. The small neighborhood joints get killed by this foolishness. And no little children hang out at these spots.

Ah, yes, you have the right to do whatever you please on your property, with the proviso that you have put into your own post... as long as it's not against the law. If smoking in public places is illegal where you live, how do you figure that you can smoke there just because you happen to own the place? Do you believe yourself to be free to commit other crimes there, too?

Smoking is not illegal. It would be better if they just outlawed smoking. That would be different. The bans state you cannot use a legal substance on your property.

[LydiaNN]

And what about the people who work in these establishments? Is there some reason they shouldn't be covered by OSHA protections? Are they meant to choose between making a living and not being exposed to a toxin that may make them cause them discomfort, asthma, allergies, or even worse, die a horrible death? We've had a smoking ban in bars for years in this state, and guess what? People get used to it.

Just as we choose to do most everything else we do in life, I imagine people choose those jobs. That really is an appalling argument because these bans do cuase some bars to go under so please don't act as though you care about those workers since many of them find themsleves out of work after these bans and business owners lose their businesses after these bans. The small neighborhood joints get killed by this foolishness. And no little children hang out at these spots.

Ah, yes, you have the right to do whatever you please on your property, with the proviso that you have put into your own post... as long as it's not against the law. If smoking in public places is illegal where you live, how do you figure that you can smoke there just because you happen to own the place? Do you believe yourself to be free to commit other crimes there, too?

Smoking is not illegal. It would be better if they just outlawed smoking. That would be different. The bans state you cannot use a legal substance on your property.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion. However, you should know that this is the rationale that has been used to pass and enforce the bar smoking bans in this state, so it isn't as if it is a rationale that I came up with on my own (although, since I obviously don't think it is the least bit appalling, and in fact is very logical, I would be happy to claim it as my own). Smoking is not illegal in some places. It is illegal in some places. Why do people keep saying it isn't? In fact, in several states in this country, it is illegal in most (in California, all) public buildings. And the OP was all about it becoming illegal in PA. Therefore, it was not unreasonable to assume that the posts about having a right to smoke in a public building that one happens to own were based on a smoking ban being in place. Because, as I said before, whatever would be the point of bringing up one's right to do something that is not illegal on their own property? Of course that is perfectly legal. I guess it just never occured to me that someone would find it necessary to point that out to me, or anyone else on this board, since to the best of my knowledge, none of us, including me (regardless of our thinking on this or any other issue) are stupid.

[Someday-C.R.N.A.]

I brought that up because I know the same ban is working it's way to my door, and I disagree with it.

I brought it up because while some people are perfectly happy dictating to others what they can do on THEIR property, I do not believe that it is right...in this case. (Telling people they cannot beat people or have sex with minors on their property is different than telling people they cannot smoke).

I was trying to express my opinion on the subject.

I would rather have customers dictate to businesses what they need to do than have 'big brother' force it upon everybody. While a smoking ban may be very nice for some people and some businesses, it may not be as appropriate for other people and establishments.

Freedom of choice is a great thing, and one of the things that make the USA such a great place to live. Enforcing a smoking ban such as this takes that freedom away from a great deal of people. I disagree with freedoms being taken away from me.

I brought it up because I feel as though this is an educated and intelligent audience, and I enjoy a healthy exchange of opinions.

[LydiaNN]

Yes, freedom of choice is a great thing. Many of us have chosen to advocate for these laws, and to use what science has taught us about the dangers of second hand smoke to persuade voters and legislators that they are necessary. It is simply untrue that people can always choose not to work in a smoky bar. Well, actually, of course they can. If they don't mind being poor. It is the only job some people can have, for a variety of reasons. They might live in an economically depressed area, they may not have other skills, or they may need to work the hours that bars are open. They shouldn't have to exercise their "freedom of choice" weighing the alternatives of losing their home or having their children go hungry and being exposed to smoke for 40 hours a week. I don't believe the smoking ban is ever going to be everywhere in this country. I'd be very surprised if it were even most places in my lifetime. Maybe the people in my state that don't like it should just be told to use their "freedom of choice" and move to a tobacco friendly state.

[dreatx]

Ok mercy,

I have a question, Is there anything you think the government should leave alone? To put it another way, should THE MAN pass a law to deal with everything that a large enough group finds distasteful? Are there any areas that should be left to personal choice and responsibility? And what do you think of the idea of the government making inroads into the areas you think belong in the realm of the private citizen?

[Someday-C.R.N.A.]

So making people move to another state makes more sense than having people move down the block to an establishment that better suits their needs/wants?

Sure.

So then why stop there?

I wasn't kidding about the cows. They are the leading cause of cow dung, and I'm not able to eat when this smell blows into the windows of my home. So I guess there should be a ban on cows, and anyone who wants to have them will have to move to a "cow-friendly" state.

Yep, that makes perfect sense.

As for the poor employees, well I work in an environment where there are quite a few nasty things in the air. My employer cannot get rid of all of the things that are bad for me, so there I am. Where do I file the necessary papers to ban steel mills?

[LydiaNN]

Ok mercy,

I have a question, Is there anything you think the government should leave alone? To put it another way, should THE MAN pass a law to deal with everything that a large enough group finds distasteful? Are there any areas that should be left to personal choice and responsibility? And what do you think of the idea of the government making inroads into the areas you think belong in the realm of the private citizen?

Of course there are plenty of things that I believe the government should stay out of. To expound on these would be to hijack this thread. I have shared plenty of my opinions about what the government should and should not do during my tenure on this board. Lots of the regulars can back me up on this! Should I choose to expound further, I will be sure to post a new thread.