The Circumcision Discussion - page 70
I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More
Jan 25, '09Occupation: RN Specialty: Critical Care ; Joined: Feb '06; Posts: 2,125; Likes: 3,657Quote from BroadwayRNRepetition does not an argument make. I was aiming at your platitude (paraphrasing: It may be rare, but if happens to you, your probability is 100%!).Excellent Posts RN/Writer! I agree it should be a private family decision whatever they decide.
This line of logic is incredibly silly and could be used to justify...damn near anything. Sorry couldn't resist the temptation to fit that line in here since it is appropriate. Touche'
The fact of the matter is that most people in the U.S. that support circumcision do so due to traditional cultural and/or religious norms and not for any other reason. Their support of it is equivalent to other cultures' support of practices our culture finds unsavory- be it female genital mutilation, foot binding, infant tattooing, body piercing, neck-ringing, or what have you. Our culture's support of this practice blinds most people from objectively realizing the practice is no better than the very things we deem unsavory or unethical in other cultures.
Separately, from a professional nursing standpoint, it violates the principle of patient autonomy.Last edit by hypocaffeinemia on Jan 25, '09
Jan 25, '09Occupation: RN Specialty: Critical Care ; Joined: Feb '06; Posts: 2,125; Likes: 3,657Quote from BroadwayRNWe're also one of three countries that refuses to standardize its measurements to SI, the other two being Burma and Liberia. The fact that the rest of the civilized world takes a different path should be a big red flag to most people.The US is the only country in the world that generally accepts circumcision as a medically necessary practice.
Jan 25, '09Occupation: Mama, Doula, CLC, BSN From: US ; Joined: Aug '08; Posts: 134; Likes: 54Quote from hypocaffeinemiaI agree 100%, I have said this several times. Thanks!!!
Separately, from a professional nursing standpoint, it violates the principle of patient autonomy.
Jan 25, '09Joined: Jan '09; Posts: 1; Likes: 2I'm not even sure why you even have to ask this question. Do you think you should have his teeth knocked out as soon as they come in because he might get cavities later on. Do you think you should have his tonsils removed because grandpa had to have them removed? What right do you think you have to cut a part of your son's healthy erogenous penis off? This should be illegal. There are no health benefits just myths and BS people say. Trust me, he won't have a problem with your choice of providing him with free choice and genital integrity. There are tons of guys out there who are ****** off about their genitals being mutilated. It's impossible to cut off erogenous skin without removing erogenous skin. All he does it clean it like any part of body and similarly you clean your vagina and of course like you or anyone if you dont clean anywhre on your body there might be a problem
Jan 25, '09Occupation: RN Specialty: Critical Care ; Joined: Feb '06; Posts: 2,125; Likes: 3,657Mattld, there are some health benefits, however, they are minimal at best:
Penile cancer is incredibly rare to begin with, but it's a fraction more rare in the circumsized.
Circumcision may help prevent transmission of HIV, but use of condoms far exceeds any minimal protection it'd offer.
Altogether, the health benefits are an example of poor science: trying to find data to justify a conclusion. Radical mastectomies at birth will surely lower breast cancer rates, after all. Such a silly line of reasoning could extend to abortion- abortion lowers the rate of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, everything!
Jan 25, '09Occupation: Military From: CA ; Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 644; Likes: 727BroadwayRN...the big difference...vaccination saves lives...both of your child and the children around him. It prevents illness. Circumcision does not...I can see your autonomy point but the comparison is really invalid, you are comparing apples to baseball.
Also, I don't believe the US thinks that circumcision is medically necessary anymore. The pediatric associations don't endorse it and I don't believe its generally covered by insurance anymore because it is elective not required.
Jan 25, '09Specialty: 4 year(s) of experience in ER ; Joined: Dec '08; Posts: 175; Likes: 210Thank you AirforceRN for being polite.
I don't have any children, I do have brothers and a boyfriend. But none the less, I have my personal opinion and if I am blessed with children and with a boy I will make the decision that I feel is the best at the time. Who knows 5 years from now I may feel differently.
For now I will bow out gracefully...
Jan 25, '09Occupation: RN Specialty: 20 year(s) of experience in Critical care ; From: US ; Joined: Jan '02; Posts: 807; Likes: 669Quote from Stanley-RN2BOK, I have. My two intact sons have told me that they really wished I had circumcized them when they were babies. They endured ridicule and hazing in school. Their wives, while accepting, had to "get over" the look before they could touch them and one of the wives, although she KNOWS, he is clean, feels unclean when they are intimate.How about letting your son grow up into an adult and then ask HIM how he feels about people cutting parts off of him.Last edit by tvccrn on Jan 25, '09 : Reason: need to learn to spell
Jan 25, '09Specialty: 7 year(s) of experience in LTC, Home Health ; From: US ; Joined: Aug '06; Posts: 306; Likes: 271Okay I just couldn't bear to read through all of the pages of a discussion on circumcision but I do have a question. What is all of this about pricking a girl? What is the purpose? Thank you! By the way I circumcised my son even though his father and grandfather were against it.
Jan 25, '09Occupation: Military From: CA ; Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 644; Likes: 727I'm going with BroadwayRN on this one...the thread has been going strong for almost 6 years! As much as I love a good debate, I've made my views known...there isn't really much else for me to say.
Thanks for all who participated...its fascinating to see both sides of this story from nurses' viewpoints. Right or wrong...it sure illicits strong feelings eh?
Jan 25, '09Joined: Nov '06; Posts: 20,715; Likes: 23,951Quote from LovebugLPNIt's a type of female genital cutting practiced in some parts of the world. Not all FGC is the horrible infibulation sort that we hear about. I'm using that because the arguments I'm seeing most about circumcision being ok for boys but FGC is a crime are: 1) FGC is disfiguring 2) FGC is used to subjugate women and/or take away their sexual enjoyment; and 3) FGC incredibly painful and done w/o anesthesia of any sort.Okay I just couldn't bear to read through all of the pages of a discussion on circumcision but I do have a question. What is all of this about pricking a girl? What is the purpose? Thank you! By the way I circumcised my son even though his father and grandfather were against it.
Making a pinprick is none of the above, yet it's still outlawed in the US. But we can remove a whole healthy foreskin from a newborn, and that's considered ok. I just don't get it.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/ (emphasis mine)
Especially interesting from the above website:
Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types:
he practice is mostly carried out by traditional circumcisers, who often play other central roles in communities, such as attending childbirths. Increasingly, however, FGM is being performed by medically trained personnel.FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are “clean” and "beautiful" after removal of body parts that are considered "male" or "unclean".
- Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, rarely, the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris) as well.
- Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
- Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, and sometimes outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
- Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.
Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
Jan 25, '09Occupation: Mama, Doula, CLC, BSN From: US ; Joined: Aug '08; Posts: 134; Likes: 54Elvish, thanks. I also feel VERY passionately about it.
I was really sickened and saddened by the poster who said her son's wives had to "get over" it and felt "dirty" after being intimate....that is HORRIBLE, what the h*ll are we teaching our children that they should/would ever feel that way! That is disgusting! I'm not saying they are bad people, I'm sure they aren't, and it sin't their fault they were taught that way...but it is horrible that they were taught such rubbish. I also can't believe they endured ridicule and hazing in school....that is ridiculous!!! Sad that they had to go through something like that....and I don't know how old they are but I would be willing to bet that kind of thing doesn't go on anymore....more boys are uncut than not and most schools don't have them shower together anymore either, etc...I know my brother never had any problems and yes, I have asked him...As have I asked ex's....same result.
Jan 25, '09Occupation: RN Specialty: 10 year(s) of experience in NICU ; Joined: Apr '06; Posts: 226; Likes: 92I'm hoping, at least, this thread has inspired some people to research the topic. I think it's easy to be pro circ (or neutral about it) if you never look into it, or see circ's done and the aftermath (like the effect of breastfeeding, risk of infection, uncontrolled bleeding)