The Circumcision Discussion

Specialties Ob/Gyn

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leslie :-D

11,191 Posts

awesome post, arwen. :balloons:

leslie

allnurses Guide

wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA

5,125 Posts

Specializes in Anesthesia.
There are lots of reasons. Most of what I hear (mother/baby nurse) is that "it's cleaner" and "we want him to look like his daddy." (We don't have that many Jewish patients, and our Muslim patients are about half-and-half circ vs. non.)

This is what I have against circ:

1) It really doesn't serve a purpose. Yes, I have heard the studies about it preventing HIV transmission. Those studies were done on adult men. If adult men want to line up to have their weenies whacked, fine. (I didn't think so!) But to put a baby boy through something like that, well, I can't see what the logic is. If it gives us pause to imagine a grown man going through something like that, why shouldn't it bother us to think about babies? Also, while we're on the HIV topic....are you (universal you here) telling me we should be preaching circumcision instead of abstinence, monogamy, and condoms? I hope not.I still believe that circumcising baby boys is not necessary if you want to prevent HIV transmission.

2) Over and over I have seen it in my work as a mother-baby nurse: people who would not think of having their little girls cut in ANY fashion (not even under local anesthesia and in a sterile room, not even a little pinprick), the same folks will send their little boys off without a second thought to have essentially the same thing done. If one is child abuse, why is the other okay?

3) Again, over and over I have seen this: Babies who are nursing like the little champs they are do great til they get circumcised. Then it all falls to pieces. Numerous studies have suggested that babies' pain response often resembles going to sleep. In actuality, they are shutting down because they cannot tolerate the pain. I have had so many moms get frustrated with nursing after their babies are circed because they will not wake up to eat.

4) The hygiene argument is a really non-applicable one, especially in the era of soap and water. Either way you have to wash down there, right? It is not that difficult to retract a foreskin, wash & rinse under it, and put it back. If it is, maybe you ought to invest in a protein shake or something. And you really don't even have to do that til the darn thing goes back on its own, which may not be for several years. Believe me, a 3-year-old can do it. My 3-year-old does.

5) I really wish people would not use the "we wanted him to look like Daddy" argument. Number one, he's not going to look like Daddy for a very long time anyway, and by the time he does, he and Daddy are probably not going to be comparing. Second, how many adult men (don't raise your hands) know/care whether or not your dad was circumcised? Third, he may notice that he and Daddy look different but that doesn't mean it will bother him. Whose hang-up is it, really? Is it the boy that will feel funny not looking like his dad, or is it the other way around? With friends that I know whose husbands are circed but their boys aren't, a simple "Daddy had a surgery you didn't need" does the trick if they ask. Also worth asking: what if Daddy has had a leg or arm amputated? Are you going to chop off your son's limb so he'll look like Daddy? Why not? (Ok, that was rhetorical. I'm NOT advocating the aforementioned idea.)

6) The locker room argument. You don't want your son to be made fun of for being 'different.' With the current circ rate running at about 60% in the USA, that leaves 40% uncirced. He'll probably have some company. Also, what are they doing looking, anyway? And what message am I sending my son having his body unnecessarily, irreversibly altered as a baby so he'll fit in?

7) I have heard people say that men who aren't circumcised don't look 'normal.' Um....ok. 75% of the world doesn't circumcise. Most Latin Americans don't. Most Asians, Europeans, and Aussies don't. Canada's universal health care doesn't cover it anymore, as far as I know. Many places in Africa don't. That leaves....hmmm....the USA. I had a nurse colleague tell me once, "It's all what you're used to." It's all about what I'm used to? I'm going to put my son through something unnecessary so he can look some way that I'm 'used to'?!

This post is not intended to offend anyone who has had their sons circumcised, nor outrage anyone reading this who has been circumcised (no need to raise hands), nor imply that people who have had their boys circed should be arrested on the spot and jailed. And I realize that a generation or two back, it was something that you just did. You didn't ask questions. I know that. I just want people to think about it.

I didn't realize that I had such strong feelings about this until I started working as a mother-baby nurse. Fortunately, we had not had Daniel circumcised as a baby because we did research & found that the AAP no longer endorses it. But having seen over and over what it does to the babies, and having seen a few botched/bleeding circs, I just can't see having it done to any baby, period. It's essentially cosmetic surgery, and no thank you. Not for my boys until they are consenting adults & can decide for themselves that it's something they want (I'll think they're crazy, but I'll make the appts if they want them).

I'm the happy mom of an uncirced boy and the proud wife of an uncirced husband. And no, they don't have much smegma at all. ;)

ETA: For those who may not know this - once the member is erect, the foreskin retracts and they all look the same anyway....

Wow, interesting observations...any research to support your arguments on 1, 3, or 4? I would especially like to see any research on #3.

Having taken of elderly men w/o circumcision I would have to say hygiene becomes a big issue for a lot of men as they get older.

czyja, MSN, RN

469 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, Progressive Care.
awesome post, arwen. :balloons:

leslie

Totally awesome post Arwen.

I look at this issue from a human rights perspective. It strikes me that both boys an girls have the right to grow up without having their genitals subject to cosmetic surgery. Can you imagine saying "You know, I don't like the way the may daughter's labia looks - let's trim it a bit - it will be easier for the poor dear to keep clean - and it wont smell so nasty. Oh, and she wont feel a thing becuase her nervous system isn't developed yet." Jimminy Crickets - you would go to jail!

A friend of mine is a nurse in France. She explained that if you ask to have your boy circumcised there you recieve a psych consult and a visit from social services. In essence the same response one would get here if you asked to have your infant daughter's genitals cut. Needless to say they won't circ your boy absent medical necessity.

Oddly, it is often women that strongly pro-circumcision. Men need to start speaking up on behalf of their boys. Women - are you happy with your privy parts the way it is? Good, then leave your boys member alone.

Oh, don't believe that "There nervous system isn't developed yet." This is the hogwash they told mothers in the 1950's. The foreskin is important sexual tissue that is loaded with nerve endings. Them nerves is there when the kid is born.

czyja, MSN, RN

469 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, Progressive Care.

Having taken of elderly men w/o circumcision I would have to say hygiene becomes a big issue for a lot of men as they get older.

Yes, this is true. But then again elderly men may also have trouble with tying their shoes and peri-anal care.

Are you suggesting that we should remove boys' foreskins so that when they are 90 years old it will be easier for them?:uhoh21:

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP

4 Articles; 5,259 Posts

Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.

well, some of my argument is based on my own experience.

baby is nursing fine and all of a sudden bam! after he's circed, it can take a long time and a lot of work to get back on track. of course, it's not that way for every baby, but how in the world do you know who'll be fine and who'll fall to pieces?

as for #1: it stands to reason that a study done on hiv transmisson would be done on adult men. not too many sexually active newborns out there....

however, here are some references that i've found to be extremely informative and supported by research.

http://www.cirp.org/library/

[color=#6699cc]http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/

[color=#6699cc]http://www.nocirc.org/

[color=#6699cc]www.jewishcircumcision.org

i too have taken care of elderly uncircumcised men (back before i started mother/baby) and yes - there can be hygiene issues. but there's no reason why a nurse can't clean his/her patient completely. there are lots of body parts that can get funky really fast if they're not cleaned right. memberes are by far not unique in that aspect.

eta: i have also taken care of many circumcised men whose genitalia smelled to high heaven. either way, if you don't wash, you're going to have problems...

allnurses Guide

wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA

5,125 Posts

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Yes, this is true. But then again elderly men may also have trouble with tying their shoes and peri-anal care.

Are you suggesting that we should remove boys' foreskins so that when they are 90 years old it will be easier for them?:uhoh21:

In short...yep

Don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with circumicision, but I believe it is just a personal choice for the parent and the research that I have seen/been taught shows that it is best done when the child is an infant.

jmgrn65, RN

1,344 Posts

Specializes in cardiac/critical care/ informatics.
Wow, interesting observations...any research to support your arguments on 1, 3, or 4? I would especially like to see any research on #3.

Having taken of elderly men w/o circumcision I would have to say hygiene becomes a big issue for a lot of men as they get older.

and better yet when the foreskin gets actually cuts into an erect member, it can actually cut off the circulation. I have seen this in LTC with older confused men.

allnurses Guide

wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA

5,125 Posts

Specializes in Anesthesia.

I too have taken care of elderly uncircumcised men (back before I started mother/baby) and yes - there CAN be hygiene issues. But there's no reason why a nurse can't clean his/her patient completely. There are lots of body parts that can get funky really fast if they're not cleaned right. memberes are by far not unique in that aspect.

ETA: I have also taken care of many circumcised men whose genitalia smelled to high heaven. Either way, if you don't wash, you're going to have problems...

So true...:lol2:

A lot of MD's push circs here is the USA because they get extra $$$$$ for this elective surgery. Most insurance companies pay between $150-$225 for a circ and it is a good money maker for MD's. It would be interesting to see how many parents would still do it if it was not paid for anymore. Parents may even do a little research so they can decide for themselves whether to circ or not instead of taking the MDs recommendation.

And for those of you who say that babes can't feel it and scream and cry just because they are restrained, try this: Take a newborn and restrain him. Leave him for 10 min and see if he crys, turns purple and is inconsolable. Most of the time not a peep comes out of him. Then compare this to a "baby with an immature neurological system who doesn't feel pain" a few mins after the circ has started and tell me this baby is not in pain. Then why is the babe screaming who is being circed?

czyja, MSN, RN

469 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, Progressive Care.
I believe it is just a personal choice for the parent

Err, and what about the boy? Should he not have the choice in the matter?

allnurses Guide

wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA

5,125 Posts

Specializes in Anesthesia.
A lot of MD's push circs here is the USA because they get extra $$$$$ for this elective surgery. Most insurance companies pay between $150-$225 for a circ and it is a good money maker for MD's. It would be interesting to see how many parents would still do it if it was not paid for anymore. Parents may even do a little research so they can decide for themselves whether to circ or not instead of taking the MDs recommendation.

Sorry, that won't argument won't work....circumcision is still done all the time in military hospitals. No extra money for the Docs there.

allnurses Guide

wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA

5,125 Posts

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Err, and what about the boy? Should he not have the choice in the matter?

No...that is one procedure that should be done when your infant and you can't remember.

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