mother dies after refusing blood transfusion

cmo421 · Nov 15, 2007

Now this is an interesting and salient point. Why wasn't the blood of this mother recycled, such as using the hemovac system or other recycling system? Autotransfusion is a fairly simple process. Why wasn't the hospital prepared for this when they had a JW mother and hemorrhage is a lifethreatening emergency after delivery?
Maybe the hospital in question needs to look at what they can do to accomodate these patients instead of pointing fingers of blame like this!

We have tried that in the past , it is not usually a rapid enough fix when there is a large,continuous blood loss occurring. It can help,but rarely enough.

HillaryC, RN, CRNA · Nov 15, 2007

Now this is an interesting and salient point. Why wasn't the blood of this mother recycled, such as using the hemovac system or other recycling system? Autotransfusion is a fairly simple process. Why wasn't the hospital prepared for this when they had a JW mother and hemorrhage is a life threatening emergency after delivery?
Maybe the hospital in question needs to look at what they can do to accommodate these patients instead of pointing fingers of blame like this!

Some patients will refuse their own blood even if it's given via a cell saver. The way it's been explained to me is that once the blood is not in continuous contact with the body it can't be returned. For example, if you are drawing labs and disconnect the waste syringe for even just a second, you can't reconnect and return the waste. My understanding is that at least one way of returning the patient's blood involves blood from the surgical site going through the cell saver and put in a bag, which is then spiked and infused like any other product. In this example, the blood does not stay in continuous contact with the body, so many JW patients would not consent to this.

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Nov 16, 2007

[i think she just felt that saving her son's life was far worth important than religion.
so there..]
I'm not a JW (I'm a Christian), but I think that was tacky at best.

I totally agree. "So there"? So there, what? We're not in middle school.

NavyVet · Nov 18, 2007

Well, lets see if I can tiptoe around peoples feelings enough to avoid violating ToS :uhoh3:

Generally speaking, religion is the root of all evil in this world from what I've seen. It doesn't matter what religion you are, what antiquated superstitious beliefs you hold, in the end lots of people suffer because of religion. Everyone gets so huffy about their beliefs that were handed to them from their parents, who got it from their parents and so on and so on. No one has any real personal stake in these beliefs other than the negative consequences of people holding said beliefs.

I don't want to seem like I'm anti (insert your particular religion here), the truth is I think any personal set of beliefs that result in bringing more tragedy to the world are bad. In this thread alone, we have a mother who refused to do whatever was necessary to protect her life and the future happiness of her children. Now her children will never know a mothers love, and their lives will be just a little bit sadder because of her decision, the world a little bit darker. We also have other people in this thread who are angry and bitter over the perceived slights to their religions, which is a bit humorous since all these religions are supposed to be about love, rainbows, butterfly kisses and forgiveness

Lets be real about this. If you choose to die, then that is your right as a human being, but at least have the decency to call it what it is, suicide, and to not leave behind other people who desperately need you. Hiding behind religion is kind of weak in my opinion. I know nursing school instructs us to respect the religion of others, but to me that just means I will keep my mouth shut, not that I respect your religion. If you make a really bad decision concerning your medical treatment because of your beliefs, rather than the facts I present you with.....I won't think your heroic, I will think your ignorant and wonder at what effect your senseless death will have on the rest of society.

Just my opinion and for all of you who get all butthurt over non-believers, I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers.....there's always the chance you'll be on the other side of the pearly gate laughing your ass off when its my turn to answer for my earthly deeds :lol2:

weezledawg · Nov 18, 2007

But can you imagine the spiritual conflicts this person would have endured should she have lived to find out that she was physically compromised by getting blood? Some things are worse than death and that's a matter of perception.

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Nov 18, 2007

But can you imagine the spiritual conflicts this person would have endured should she have lived to find out that she was physically compromised by getting blood? Some things are worse than death and that's a matter of perception.

Maybe she would have gotten over it eventually...

txpixiedust · Nov 18, 2007

all red text is quoted from navyvet post.

we also have other people in this thread who are angry and bitter over the perceived slights to their religions, which is a bit humorous since all these religions are supposed to be about love, rainbows, butterfly kisses and forgiveness

not sure if you are referring to me, but i'm not angry & bitter. i don't think anyone who has tried to explain faith of any kind in this thread has been angry & bitter - i've read every post in this thread, but not all together so perhaps somebody was.

what i find surprising is how much faith you have in not having any faith!!! and you spout it around like anyone who does is an idiot. i and others on this board respect your right to believe or not believe whatever you want. but do you? i'm sure you think you do, but do you really? i think if you're honest with yourself you'll find you don't. like when you said it doesn't matter what religion you are, what antiquated superstitious beliefs you hold, in the end lots of people suffer because of religion

i don't care if you are an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else you might be. what bothers me (and probably others) is how you think anyone with a faith in god holds antiquated superstitious beliefs. even if you want to look at it "logically" - superstition has nothing to do with faith. superstition is based on fear. faith is based on a love and desire to live for a god who saved you. i live for christ because he loved me & saved me. i want to live each day for him - doing what he would have me to do, not because i fear him.

everyone gets so huffy about their beliefs that were handed to them from their parents, who got it from their parents and so on and so on. no one has any real personal stake in these beliefs other than the negative consequences of people holding said beliefs.

yes, i went to church with my parents - but they couldn't make that decision for me or live my life for me. i said it before and i'll say it again, there is a huge difference in being "religious" and having a true faith! are there people who go to church, profess to be christians (or jw's, catholics, or others) but don't really believe, read their bible & do what is says? yes, there are. it even says in the bible, that everyone who calls jesus lord won't enter heaven. there are people who go to church each week and even work in ministry who aren't christians. does that mean everyone doesn't have a true faith that is real & deep to them? no, it doesn't.

"...religions, which is a bit humorous since all these religions are supposed to be about love, rainbows, butterfly kisses and forgiveness."

yes, i'm called to love and forgive - and i do. we are called to love sinners, and live in the world but not of the world. jesus was loving, kind, and forgiving - but he'd tell people to "go and sin no more." - meaning to not consciously sin. i don't believe it's a sin to get blood, and i would absolutely do it if i needed it(but i'm not a jw). but the jw mother, felt if she had a transfusion it would be consciously sinning.

what is most annoying is the double standard non-believers seem to live. it's o.k. for you not to believe, it's just not o.k. for me to believe. you are smart while we are idiots. it's o.k. to do & say what you want as long as you don't believe in god and attribute what you do to him.

just my opinion and for all of you who get all butthurt over non-believers, i'll be the first to admit i don't have all the answers.....there's always the chance you'll be on the other side of the pearly gate laughing your ass off when its my turn to answer for my earthly deeds.

well....that just makes me sad, actually. i'd be happy to discuss the bible and my faith with you through email. as i said before, i agree with you that there are many people who are "religous" but not real believers. yes, there are hypocrites in church - but it's better to sit next to them in church than hell. ha.

god bless,

txpixiedust

WindyhillBSN · Nov 18, 2007

Maybe she would have gotten over it eventually...

Maybe not........

kstec, LPN · Nov 18, 2007

To die and leave your child or children over a religion or belief is just ridiculous. To have faith is one thing, but to believe in something you've never seen, heard, felt, or touched over something that you can (a child) is beyond something I'll ever understand and hope that I never do. Brainwashing is real and we just witnessed it with this thread. I would die to save my children, but would I die for the unknown, heck NO!!!!! Bash On, Believers!!!!

weezledawg · Nov 18, 2007

To die and leave your child or children over a religion or belief is just ridiculous. To have faith is one thing, but to believe in something you've never seen, heard, felt, or touched over something that you can (a child) is beyond something I'll ever understand and hope that I never do. Brainwashing is real and we just witnessed it with this thread. I would die to save my children, but would I die for the unknown, heck NO!!!!! Bash on believers!!!

Wow, you are clearly very emotional about this issue. I know it's difficult but sometimes just "saving" someone is not what's best. We don't get to judge the validity of someone else's belief system. She chose for herself, and good for her that she is able to. In some cultures this is not allowed. Good for our medical system that we honored it. We don't always have to understand what is "right" for others, but as advocates of patients and their rights then ethically we must honor wishes. Even if they die.

NavyVet · Nov 18, 2007

Heya txpixiedust,

First off allow me to state that my posting wasn't in response to any one persons post, I wasn't looking to pick out anyone out of the group.

However, you do seem to be typical of the religious or faith based crowd I guess, so allow me to respond to your posting as if you represented the group. Again, just an intellectual exchange of ideas.

I said earlier I was trying to tiptoe around without hurting people's feelings because I really do like this website and would rather not get banned. Hopefully this post won't do it because I realize this is some touchy material for some folks. That being said, here goes. You are right about how I feel about religious people. I do not respect their beliefs. I think anyone who relies on faith to sustain them or to explain the world around them is an idiot and weak-willed. We've discovered Fire, we control electricity, we can travel to other planets, we aren't grubbing around in the dark living in caves anymore. So why do some people hold on to these beliefs that were used to explain the natural world a few thousand years ago? FEAR, fear is the reason. You can cover it up with whatever pretty words you like from a book written 2,000 years ago by a couple different guys, but fear of the unknown is a major motivator for most folks. We're still not sure about what happens when we die, so people like to cling to this happy idea of Heaven where everything will be great when we toss off this mortal coil. The flip side of that coin is Hell, which is just another abstract concept used to control the masses.

You are bothered by non believers otherwise you wouldn't have posted in response to me. I'll freely admit that I am bothered by religious people and their sanctimonious I'm better than you prattling. It seems that religious people want to tell everyone else that they have the only right idea about the Afterlife. Their audacity astounds me. I could go on and on about the evils perpetuated in the name of Religion. I can give factual instances of atrocities inflicted by religious people onto people of other religions. The religious person will then throw out some meaningless quotes from the bible and say how you have to have faith. Faith is the answer to everything. Where is God? Why did Mommy have to die? Faith is really just a cop out excuse to avoid having to face the possibility that life is random, sometimes bad things happen for no reason.

Truth be told you've probably had this conversation before, I know I have numerous times. I realize that I'm not going to change your opinion no matter what facts I bring to the conversation just as you won't be able to convert me to your way of thinking solely based on faith. However, I'm not an unreasonable man, I'm more than willing to change my beliefs based on the tangible facts of a given situation. You produce God for me, and please have him state which God he is, I'd be willing to change my tune. I do find it interesting that out of the dozens of times I've had this conversation in my life, I always get the person of TRUE FAITH, the one who acknowledges that religion is full of fakers who won't get into heaven and who don't believe the right things.....but not the guy I'm talking to. He/she is one of the TRUE BELIEVERS who will get into heaven. Well, I have already stated that I don't really respect religions, I can tell you what I do respect. I respect your individual right to think I'm an idiot. Matter of fact I devoted 9 years of my adult life to ensuring you have that right

NavyVet · Nov 18, 2007

Wow, you are clearly very emotional about this issue. I know it's difficult but sometimes just "saving" someone is not what's best. We don't get to judge the validity of someone else's belief system. She chose for herself, and good for her that she is able to. In some cultures this is not allowed. Good for our medical system that we honored it. We don't always have to understand what is "right" for others, but as advocates of patients and their rights then ethically we must honor wishes. Even if they die.

LOL, of course we judge the validity of others belief system. Don't feel bad about it and don't hide behind ethics or whatever your using as justification for making that statement. We are all human, we all have opinions on a given topic. We may not be able to voice our thoughts about someone's decision because we don't want to lose our jobs, but we still have opinions on it that go unsaid. Perhaps its my belief that all life is sacred and because I didn't do everything in my power to save that individual, that I am now an accomplice to their suicide. That perhaps I bear some responsibility for babies who now have no mother.

I'm bound by law to let someone die if that is what they want to do as it is their individual right to refuse treatment. That doesn't mean that I believe what they are doing is right, and it won't stop me from thinking that they are idiots. You hold tight to your belief that its okay for people to make those bad decisions when a 5 year old boy comes in and needs a transfusion to live and his parents tell you no, its against their religion and its God's will that the child should die:o Tell me how comforting your ethics will be then? Personally I would feel like I had killed the child myself by withholding treatment.

I know I'm going to judge those parents harshly if I ever come across that situation.