mother dies after refusing blood transfusion

[FireStarterRN]

A very sad story from England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7078455.stm

A young mother has died after giving birth to twins, following claims that she had refused a blood transfusion because of her faith.

Jehovah's Witness Emma Gough, 22, from Telford, Shropshire, gave birth on 25 October.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Maybe not........

Ah, but maybe she would have...

[weezledawg]

LOL, of course we judge the validity of others belief system. Don't feel bad about it and don't hide behind ethics or whatever your using as justification for making that statement. We are all human, we all have opinions on a given topic. We may not be able to voice our thoughts about someone's decision because we don't want to lose our jobs, but we still have opinions on it that go unsaid. Perhaps its my belief that all life is sacred and because I didn't do everything in my power to save that individual, that I am now an accomplice to their suicide. That perhaps I bear some responsibility for babies who now have no mother.

I'm bound by law to let someone die if that is what they want to do as it is their individual right to refuse treatment. That doesn't mean that I believe what they are doing is right, and it won't stop me from thinking that they are idiots. You hold tight to your belief that its okay for people to make those bad decisions when a 5 year old boy comes in and needs a transfusion to live and his parents tell you no, its against their religion and its God's will that the child should die:o Tell me how comforting your ethics will be then? Personally I would feel like I had killed the child myself by withholding treatment.

I know I'm going to judge those parents harshly if I ever come across that situation.

So, you have raised another interesting ethical issue... the lines certainly blur more when the rights to choose cross from one person choosing for themself and the difference between this action and choosing for another. So, if religious beliefs get in the way of appropriate treatment for a child, then it can be a different matter. Legally (and I am not an expert in any way on this) in certain states and under different interpretations of the law when it comes to a child, then the courts can enforce a standard of life-preserving care for a child even if it conflicts with the parent's religious choices.

But originally I was talking about that one parent's right to choose. Does that mean that if I get cancer that I have to take the most agressive route if I am certain to die if left untreated? I don't want any medical team forcing their belief system on me.

As a medical professional, I have to be very clear about my opinions and not letting them get in the way of respecting my patient's choices. I don't get to say, "Oh yeah, you're gonna die anyway so just be a DNR." And I don't get to say that devoutly religious people accept medical treatments that go against their spiritual beliefs. All I can do is say, "The chances of you dying are 95% if you don't get this blood. Are you prepared to leave your newborn twins behind?" If they are informed and prepared then that's up to them.

My feelings, no matter how oppositional, have no place in determining the course of care for my patients. Be mindful, however, that such passionate feelings can cloud boundaries when push comes to shove with ethical decisions.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Anyways, reading the last few posts, I think this whole conversation is sort of deteriorating. It just seems to be getting more disrespectful and not productive. Is anyone else feeling that way? I don't know what it is about Jehovah Witness beliefs that sets people off so much. They seem like peaceful, sincere, and harmless people to me and I have a lot of respect for them. They've got a lot of guts to go witnessing door to door, I like the way they dress up to do so, they are respectful and clean cut.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

I mean, look at all the non-compliant, self-destructive people we nurses take care of! What about the people who destroy their health with food, drugs, alcohol, slothfulness? They so outnumber the rare JW who dies because of refusal of blood products. This is so rare that this story made the news all the way from England!

JW people are also pacifists and so they don't contribute to warfare or crime. They are model citizens and if more people acted like them the world would be a nicer place.

[NavyVet]

Anyways, reading the last few posts, I think this whole conversation is sort of deteriorating.

Eh, I guess I have to agree with you and apologize if my commentary sent us this direction too quickly. Unfortunately that is what happens whenever people that have strong beliefs about something are set in opposition to one another. Religious conversations seem to go south pretty quick since its tough to put forth one point of view without slighting the other party. I'm not religious....so there is no doctrine telling me to think this way....however my personal beliefs of what it takes to be a decent human beings tells me that I should forgive anyone who hurt my feelings; hopefully others will feel the same

[suanna]

I'm sure this was a terrible time for the family and patient. PLEASE if you have a patient in this condition it is fair to explain the prob. outcome-death-if they refuse blood but don't hammer them with every interaction. I have known very few J.W. patients who have reversd thier decision to refuse blood but I have known several that have spent thier final weeks having to defend thier choice to every nurse doctor, care manager, chaplin ... that walks into the room. They don't need more guilt. They need the support and acceptance of thier care givers. We can do many things in hospital that can't be done at home - hyperbarics, EPO, coloid fluid support- I'm sure thier are other traetments I'm missing. My point is sometimes the only conversation these patients get in thier final days or weeks is " you are going to die and it's your own fault" I f you were in a foreign hospital and that culture felt it was OK to kill a child to procure an organ for a transplant to save your life- would you agree to having a child killed? This culture doesn't exist (as far as I know) but the situation is the same. Would you like to be treated to the best of thier ability and supported in your decision or badgered an belittled by the staff that are caring for you? Don't get me wrong- I think they are nuts, but I can respect thier right to be nuts and admire thier commitment to thier faith. I just wish I could be sure mine would be as strong if I were faced with a simular test.

[queenjean]

I'd like to weigh in here, as an athiest and a nurse.

I 100% support a pt's right to make decisions regarding their health care, whether it is to refuse a certain immunization, medication, or a treatment--benign like physical therapy, or life-saving, like chemo or blood transfusions. I support this for whatever reason they have, be they religious or otherwise. I support it when it involves their children, too. I don't have to agree; but that's not my point. I can make sure they understand the consequences of their actions, and then I support them in whatever they choose.

I know certain things in my heart. I know there is no god. I know I love my girls more than anything in the world, and I would do anything for them. I know certain actions (and inactions) are right or wrong. I cannot always rationally articulate *why* I know these things; but the right or wrong of certain issues, actions, and feelins is as real and right to me as the big fat dog who is sitting on my feet right now (the heating vent is under the computer table, and she cuddles up, whether your feet are there or not).

If my awareness of absolute right and wrong tell me to refuse a certain treatment, no amount of discussion from any doc, nurse or social worker is going to persuade me otherwise.

Whenever I encounter a situation like the OP presented, I think about my own absolute beliefs, and feel that this poor mother probably felt similarly.

[txpixiedust]

hey navyvet,

unfortunately i think this discussion would be better in person than on a message board - even if we didn't agree. i never meant to imply i'm the only true believer -just that there are plenty of people who go to church for social reasons, or think they are believers because they've "checked" the box by coming to church. and since you said people on the board weren't acting as people of faith should, i felt compelled to mention that.

like you said, we are unlikely to change each others mind - especially through this format. ha. i don't feel that i'm better than anyone else, and i don't get the impression that you do either. i feel i'm "right" only because i truly believe that jesus is the one & only way. i think whatever religion someone has, if they truly believe that doctrine they feel it's "the way." fear is absolutely not the reason i love god, for me it's gratitude for forgiveness & love he's shown me. i'm sure there are people who believe out of fear, as fear is a great motivator to do lots of things.

i respect your individual right to think i'm an idiot. matter of fact i devoted 9 years of my adult life to ensuring you have that right

i sincerely appreciate you serving our country and allowing me & others like me to be able to worship god freely. my father served in the navy also. i honestly don't think you are an idiot - what i "think" is that if you were to find jesus you'd be an awesome testimony for the faith, since you are very passionate about your beliefs! what i feel is sadness & love for anyone who feels the way you do.

i appreciate your response, and while some of what you said is harsh i don't know that you meant it that way. i think i'm done with this thread, but if you'd like to talk by email i'd be happy to.

god bless you!

txpixiedust

[NavyVet]

It has been interesting exchanging ideas with you txpixiedust;) and to be absolutely honest with you I don't want to change people's ideas about religion. I've done that before and felt really bad about the results...if you strip someone of their beliefs and they aren't tough enough to go it alone in the world, the results can be unpleasant.

I do commend you on your ability to remain civil since when I re-read my posts I can see where I was trying to dig at ya a bit. About half the reason I write is because I enjoy the debate itself and if everyone who reads becomes a little bit more open minded as a result of seeing a different viewpoint then that's just a bonus :)

I don't think of my communication style as harsh, but rather plain spoken, perhaps blunt and to the point. Of course, some may consider that harsh, but I've found over the years that tiptoeing around a subject and choosing your words based on the sensibilities of the audience tends to water down the message I was trying to get across. I generally don't put forth my ideas on religion or my own belief system because I feel its a private personal matter for each person to decide on their own. However, when I see a proponent of organized religion professing there beliefs in a public arena, I feel compelled to speak out since it sort of feels like they are pushing their beliefs on others.

I was going to write more here, but I realize that I was going to just bring up more points to debate purely for the sake of continued debate, which is counterproductive. I think I will end by saying that you are welcome to your opinion and while I may disagree with it, it is yours and I can respect your desire to defend your beliefs

[nurse-sigh]

Hi , I am just new to this thread, but I sometimes wonder if all options were explored. Often JW's will accept cell salvaging, as it is their own blood being transfused back into their system via a closed circuit. Perhaps other options should be more readily available to patients who fall under this category.

[karenm31]

i'm sorry but there is something about just letting a patient that you very well might have saved die that makes me sick...i know all about "it's her right" stuff. well why did she even come to the hospital, why not just have the baby at home then in some cornfeild. a patient comes to the hospital and wants our help, but then when her life is on the line she refuses....i'm sorry i'm in the buissness of trying to save life,sight or limb. thank god my name is not on her record, cause it just makes me sick.

I agree with you. This whole subject of religious rights just sickens me. I don't care about their religion when they come in for me to care for them. I have two children of my own and I can't imagine leaving them behind because I refused treatment that could save my life. I would do anything for my children and that includes saving my own life so that I could be here to take care of them. Thank you for your comment. I am glad that someone had the nerve to say what everyone is really thinking.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

I agree with you. This whole subject of religious rights just sickens me. I don't care about their religion when they come in for me to care for them. I have two children of my own and I can't imagine leaving them behind because I refused treatment that could save my life. I would do anything for my children and that includes saving my own life so that I could be here to take care of them. Thank you for your comment. I am glad that someone had the nerve to say what everyone is really thinking.

Everyone was thinking this? I beg to differ.

As far as "why come to the hospital at all?", hospitals do a lot more than administer blood products.