Is Health Care a Right? - page 40
Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More
Feb 19, '03Nicely put, Susy. It's like with kids - you don't give them freedom all at once - you gradually increase their privileges as they show an ability to handle the responsibility properly. Our gov't has so far shown no ability to properly manage the health care coverage it already sponsors.
I'm getting a little off-track, but an addendum to your comment re: instant gratification: can't tell you how many patients we've seen in the past month who all want antibiotics even when there was all kinds of clinical data indicating the problem wasn't even bacterial. Explaining the whole resistant germ thing to people that wouldn't finish their atbx scripts. One person even said "Who cares if germs become resistant - they'll just make a new antibiotic then." Like you said - too many people want what they want and right now. Another person said it would be ok for him to have the more expensive atbx now because he had insurance. Forget that the cheap one was just fine for his infection.
Feb 19, '03Originally posted by KC CHICK
Apparantly, Susy isn't the only one that "doesn't get it".
I agree with many of her points.
No, our system isn't perfect. It's VERY apparent when hard working folks who are temporarily down and out can't get the help they deserve. It's also grossly taken advantage of by others who are capable of working to support themselves, but for some reason...choose not to.
The daughter of a friend of my mother's drives a Lincoln Navigator....and is on federal and state aid. BTW, she is not disabled in any way. How screwed up is that???
I was also told, by my best friend today, that a L&D patient of hers drove off in a new SUV after having her delivery paid for .....by us. She too was on aid. This individual and spouse own their own business and don't claim all to the gov't. Sickening.
The universal health care systems both in Canada and Great Britain aren't without their problems either. Personally, I haven't seen anyone address the articles that I posted awhile back regarding the holding of services or the long waits.
I don't know what the answer is. All I know is I have worked hard to get where I am today. I'm tired of feeling like I'm being taken advantage of by others who simply choose to live off the system. I know not all have attitudes of this nature.....but I've witnessed enough to know that the attitude is widespread...an epidemic if you will.
The question remains unanswered....WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH?
If there is no motivation, no reward for hard work. Why am I working my patootie off now?
Maybe I'm selfish, but I want the fruits of my labors to go to my family and loved ones.
If I can't do that...then I might as well quit my job and dump my dreams right now.
Miranda's mommy rocks.
Feb 19, '03Originally posted by JMP
I have been trying to tell some of these posters for a few posts now what universal health care is all about, how it can work etc.
However, they have their minds set on keeping the out of wack system they have and defending their right to it to the bitter end.
Kevin, you have disappointed me. You asked me specific questions, I answered them and no reponse.
I am SOOOOO sorry to disappoint you. Truely, I'm crushed. Its just that I realized when you continued to call those of us who disagree with you names, there would be no debating the points of disagreement with you. You are not even willing to discuss limits to taxation beyond your own short sighted abilities.
You are too hidebound, too sanctimonious, and too smug to try to reason with. Therefore, I have chalked up your arguments to emotion, and written you off (on this topic) as being unable to respond logically and reasonably. Sorry, but I just don't have the time for your nonsense.
Feb 19, '03Kevin
My nonsense is the Canadian health care system, where I work and live. The topic of this thread is "is universal health care a right?" I, in my emotional and nonsensical way, know it to be true that it is a right, for Canadian citizens. It is a fact of life here.
I too think that it is silly to carry on a debate when it is obivous that you either don't care to know the facts, or are too fearful to come to terms with them. The facts speak for themselves and there are a number of links, going WAY back on this thread that all can be read for proof.
You went WAY back on this thread and addressed me personally, this past weekend, and I took the time to reply to you. The fact that we disagree is obvious, the fact that we come from different places where different values are held is also obvious. THe fact that we both have our minds made up, at least I know I do, that my way ( Canadian Health care system) is the better way, is also obvious. As I also stated earlier .....I live a good life, have a good income, and STILL my fellow citizens are covered for ANY medical need. It is something, I feel, to be proud of.
I wish you luck. I wish you continued medical coverage.
Always willing to agree to disagree, even with you Kevin.
Feb 19, '03Originally posted by Sally_ICURN
I'm wondering, do you hold stock in an insurance company?
Sally, the point is this: You came across a time where your income was somewhat reduced. You had a few nice things, and wanted to keep them. Understandable. BUT you wanted the taxpayers to foot the bill for your health care so you could keep your "stuff" and still feel comfortable about health care. Sorry, but in my time working to get where I am now, whatever luxuries I had and kept, I paid for. I also kept and paid for my insurance. In order to go back to school, and keep some of my "stuff," I had to give up or forego some other "stuff." By your own admission, you did not go back to school to get out of poverty, but to get out of a dead end job. I applaud your motivation. But, if health care was so important, then going back to school perhaps should have waited. It is not the responsibility of the taxpayer, nor the government, to make your life easier, to get you ahead in the world, or to make you happy. That responsibility rests squarely on the individual's shoulders.
Is it so hard for you to see why Susy, myself, and others are having such a hard time with this?
Feb 19, '03This may come as a surprise to some (but not to Vegas who thinks I'm all soft and nice lately) but I feel that Kevin was surprisingly hard on JMP in his last post. I too hate the insults and name-calling, though.
And not that I agree with you, but JMP your last post to Kevin was very good.
Ok I'm done now.
Feb 19, '03JMP....I would just like to say that I am very pleased when I hear that ALL the ppl of ANY country have complete health coverage. You are very lucky to have that. I don't agree w/ everything you say, but then again I don't agree w/ a lot. I am here, as everyone else to express my opinions on a VERY VERY touchy subject. I commend you for voicing your opinion, in which you have great arguments. Keep up the good work.
Feb 20, '03Ya know, now I'm sorry I ever posted what I did, and I rarely regret anything I say or do. I should have known that it would get blown out of proportion. I should've known. Ah well, I guess I'm still living and learning even in my old age.
btw, my question to Susy wasn't intended as a "slur."
Feb 20, '03After reading Susy's post, I went back and re-read my posts, and realized that she was right. I was too harsh. So, JMP, for the tone of my last post, I sincerely apologise.
I do not, however, retract what I was trying to say. It may suprise you to learn, JMP, that there are Americans who don't think Canadian health care is "all that." I can use my own case as an example. I have a severely damaged right knee, that needs replacement. At 43 years old, I'm just too young to have that procedure done if I can possibly put it off. So, under the US system (which admittedly has flaws), I am waiting until the pain gets so bad that I can't stand it. Right now, with anti-inflammatories, I am doing quite well. When it gets to the point that anti-inflammatories aren't helping, I'll go see Dr McQueen, a leading joint replacement specialist in the midwest, who will replace my knee. I'll probably be on the surgery schedule about 4-6 weeks after I initially see McQueen.
The last time I heard anything about it, the wait in Canada for a knee replacement could be up to two years. After all, no one could reasonably call a knee replacement "emergent surgery." If I lived under such a system, I'd have to try to guess when I will be two years out from being in such bad pain I can no longer stand it. Well, of course I can't begin to guess when that will be, since I don't know how it will feel today. To be safe, I'd have to go ahead and put myself on the list NOW, and end up with a joint replacement at 45 years old. Ask any orthopod. Knee replacement surgery at 45 should only be undertaken in the case of terrible, unrelenting pain. Of course, my other option is to wait until the pain is so bad I can't stand it, then put up with that pain for two years, probably having to use oral narcotics, waiting for surgery. See my problem?
I'm tired of others assuming that because I don't necessarily think some other country's health care plan is the best for the US, I must be some sick, greedy bast****, or I must own stock in the insurance industry (is that redundant?). I've said, there are problems with our system, but replacing it with another system with equal or greater flaws just isn't the answer either.
I'm also sick of people from other countries telling the US to "butt out of their business" but have no problem condemning the US for how we do things here. "You don't do it like we do, you terrible people!" There is a horrendous dichotomy there. But that's another thread.
So, for the tone of my message, JMP, I apologise. It was needlessly, thoughtlessly harsh. But I stand by the content.
Kevin McHughLast edit by kmchugh on Feb 20, '03
Feb 20, '03I'm also sick of people from other countries telling the US to "butt out of their business" but have no problem condemning the US for how we do things here. "You don't do it like we do, you terrible people!" There is a horrendous dichotomy there. But that's another thread.
Kevin McHugh [/B][/QUOTE]
Kevin you are right about that.
But that is what a lot of other countries think about the USA.
Whatever we (the small countries of this world) do, big brother (aka USA) knows it better. At least "we" get that feeling sometimes.
Now, about health issues and people from other countries knowing it "better", could it be that tv and other media play a big role here too?
Almost all the big medical-tv-shows (and the legal and emergency ones too) shown here on our tv, come from the USA.
That might be the reason, "we" think to know all about your healthsystem.
Feb 20, '03Thanks Kevin.
Although, my nice and soft mood has worn off quickly. My ugly head will be rearing itself in another thread TBA.