Is Health Care a Right? - page 33

Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More

  1. by   Gromit
    Originally posted by maureeno

    meanwhile, since most immigrants come into the US to work, a payroll tax for mandatory health insurance would include them as well.
    While that sounds logical, sadly, it is NOT the case. Illegals do NOT pay taxes, the payroll is not a legal one. How can you legally do an illegal thing? The illegals have no social security number, and the farmers do creative book keeping. They get paid in cash, and typically do not have bank accounts or any other legal way to track them.

    I live in berry-city USA. Plant City is rife with illegals picking strawberrys, citrus, and just about any other crop. Typically they live in substandard housing, and follow the crops. That is, when the crops are worked, they move or migrate to the next state or area, and work there. they do NOT pay taxes. But when they are hurt, I've been working in ERs where the farmer literally just drops them off, and leaves.
    So your payroll tax for mandatory health insurance will not harness them. We will just foot that bill. Since it will be socialized healthcare (call it by what it is), we will pay for far more than the occasional broken bone or deep soft-tissue wound. We will pay for whatever ails 'em. Its human nature to take what is 'free'. Even as illegals, I would never begrudge them real life-threatening healthcare, but illegal is supposed to be just that. Usually a blind-eye is turned to this, because there aren't enough resources to deport them (especially when they just flock right back over). Sure, from time to time, NIS will make a round-up, but its just a token one.
  2. by   OzNurse69
    Originally posted by Gromit

    Is it a failure? Or is it a failure to capitulate to socialistic ideas? The jury is still out on that. What kind of RIGHT is it that I must pay for it to be GIVEN to someone else?

    Since when is providing basic health care to every member of the populace, without fear, favour or discrimination, "capitulating to socialist ideas"??

    Sorry, going to have to stop now, before I say something I may regret. I just defy anyone to demonstrate to me that the US has the best and most equitable health system in the world -- even if if costs you, Gromit, as a taxpayer, twice as much as it would if you were living in nearly any other country in the world.

    I'll stick with my cheap & cheerful, thanks very much. It may not be perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what the US has......
  3. by   JMP
    I have just finished working 36 hours in the last 3 days. Reading over the recent posts I was disheartened to see that when I left the conversation was reasonalble and moving forward and now it seems to be stuck.

    I appreciated seeing the numbers and percentages, but I knew the facts anyways........ Gromit.......pulling out all of these flag waving, do or die arguments is plain silly. Has nothing to do with subject at hand.

    Gromit, listen, take the time to read. Listen. I live in a country where universal health care works. It works for everybody all of the time.
  4. by   semstr
    Gromit, I too live in a country, as in most European countries by the way, where "it" works. Oh and by the way, we are no socialists. LOL
  5. by   Gromit
    Originally posted by OzNurse69
    Since when is providing basic health care to every member of the populace, without fear, favour or discrimination, "capitulating to socialist ideas"??
    Are you SERIOUS? Do you KNOW what socialism is??

    It is a socialistic idea because you are redistributing my wealth w/o my choice, to give to (essentially) everyone. Remember Communism? The idea that everyone had the same? Nobody was better or had more? (well, that was the theory, at least, even though it wasn't truly practiced by those in power).

    I have no problem with others having healthcare, and do not put up with discrimination, however, its NOT free, and if you are making a large segment of the populace pay for everyone to have 'free' healthcare, that is a socialistic principle.

    Its not rocket science.
  6. by   JMP

    Giving more does not necesarily mean getting less.

    Become informed.
  7. by   semstr
    Gromit, communism = not sozialism.
  8. by   KP RN
    I can attest to the fact that YES, wealthy people from all over the world come to my city for health care. When they come here, they bring their entourage of employees, extended family members and dump hundreds of thousands of dollars into our local economy.
    Money is no object to these people. Facilities here, Baltimore, Minnesota, and other American cities reap tremendous financial benefits from catering to this segment of people.
    The reason kings and sheiks (spelling?) come to the USA is they want the best quality of care, and they want it in a timely fashion.
    The American health care system is still based upon a concept called competition in a free market environment. As much as nurses are unwilling to accept it, health care is a business, just like food service, the oil business, and the housing industry. All industries are basic to life. Once competetion is eliminated you eliminate motivation to succeed, thereby decreasing innovation, quality of services, responsiveness to patients, and you fall into a slow moving inefficient government bureaucracy.
  9. by   JMP
    Karen wrote:
    Once competetion is eliminated you eliminate motivation to succeed, thereby decreasing innovation, quality of services, responsiveness to patients, and you fall into a slow moving inefficient government bureaucracy.

    Karen, living in a place that delivers health care with no competetion- I can tell you that innovation and quality and responsiveness does not suffer. We in Canada have a virbant and healthy health care system. No, it is not a perfect one, but I can tell you that we have everything done in a timely manner. I work in an ICU and everyone gets everything they need.... or they are air lifted to another Canadian center for it.

    As long as your health care system is run like a business then your patients will be treated like customers and your health care will be a service to those who can afford it, which is OK except for the millions who can NOT afford it..... and that is the real issue, in my own opinion.

    Karen wrote:
    All industries are basic to life.

    Well, I think that is not true.... I think we could live without many industries..however health care is much is a life saving operation, it is critical care when you are in a crash, it is LIFE saving! It is basic to society. It is at the core of fair and just society.
    Last edit by JMP on Feb 10, '03
  10. by   KP RN
    Ah, my dear JMP, evidently, you seized the opportunity to take out of context the spirit of the statement "All industries are basic to life." So sorry for the semantic error, I meant it to read "Health care is a business, just like food service, the oil business, and the housing industry. ALL THESE industries are basic necessities of life."
    But you knew that, didn't you??
    I can see you are very, very proud of your Canadian health system. That's wonderful!!
    My husband and I have very dear friends who live outside Toronto (in Mississauga). Funny thing is, when they need basic health care, they drive here to get it! Our gentleman friend lacerated his back on a glass fireplace door, and could not get seen by a doctor! He drove here to get sutured up! Our lady friend, was on a waiting list for over 16 months to get an MRI for a knee injury completed. When she could wait no longer, she came here to the States and was given some NSAIDS medication, which helped tremendously. Why is it that no Canadian doctor bothered to give her medicine??
    I have theories:
    1. It doesn't matter if you're a satisfied customer or not in your health system, because doctors aren't dependent upon satisfying anybody but the government.
    2. Doctors aren't motivated to be thorough or complete because that doesn't build their practice.
    3. Minimum care results in minimum expense, which makes the Canadian health system happier, not necessarily healthier.
  11. by   OzNurse69
    Originally posted by Gromit
    Are you SERIOUS? Do you KNOW what socialism is??

    Duh, YES I know what socialism is, it's the "capitulating" part of the phrase that I take issue with......I just included the rest of the phrase to give it some context.

    I'm out of quote another board member...."I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man....."
  12. by   Stargazer
    I think this article, posted on another thread by maia1212, is a brilliant illustration of everything's that's wrong with medicine-for-profit.
  13. by   JMP

    Don't be so defensive! Man oh is tough to debate sometimes!

    So, in reading your post am I to assume it is OK by your standards to have millions uninsured and left to pray that nothing happens to them vs. some anecdotal story about a fireplace and and someone's back??

    Our health care system and others like it in Britian and Austraila and Sweden and Demark and many other European nations are not perfect and yes, sometimes people have to wait for non-life threatening illnesses and procedures..HOWEVER, no one and I mean no one, goes without anything. No one has to morgage their house for an operation, no one has to worry if their kids get sick or need surgery.

    Please consider the outcomes when people do not have access to basic health care. Healthly outcomes are what we all want in health care...right? But you have to HAVE health care to HAVE healthy outcomes.
    Last edit by JMP on Feb 10, '03