Importing Foreign-trained nurses

Larry · Nov 19, 2001

There has always been a shortage in the UK. The present shortage is due to pay. Nurses within NHS have to work nights as well as days. There are no just nights so the inflexibility is part to blame. Now entrants to nursing are all in higher education - students spend less time on the wards and thus their manpower is absent. The Enrolled nurse who did a practical course of two years has been wound up. And of course there are shortages.

Older nurses experience is not being recognised and honestly nurses are stressed.

To finish your degree and be offered peanuts - then nursing isn't appealing as a career. WE WANT MORE MONEY!

-jt · Nov 20, 2001

Oops, sorry, just reread and I sound really b!tchy, don't I?? Had a rotten day, think I'll go to bed now, hopefully wake up happier in the morning.>>

I live in NYC so I probably make more than double your salary. I have no complaints with my salary - not even with the relatively higher cost of living here. I do want a better pension, though & thats the next battle at my facility. I dont know which post exactly youre referring to with the "underpaid" comment but I am not "winging". I am stating fact. There are states in this country where RNs are earning $10 - $11 per hour. (Our security guards earn more than that). Full time work is around 1950 hours per year I think. Do the math & it isnt anywhere near $45k. I have no problem with the salaries in my city. But when I say nurses here are not paid adequately, I dont mean in my city - I mean in my country.

Nurses in every city should have salaries as good as ours in NYC. But those salaries werent just handed to us. We and our state nurses association fought for them with every contract. Our salaries represent 30 yrs worth of collective bargaining - improving & improving until they got to where they are now & now its the going standard industry rate here.... but its not $45k in NYC...its more like $55 - $60k.

Until other nurses start fighting for comparable salaries in their cities, nothing will change for them. Youre coming up with an average which comes out higher because it includes cities like mine where nurses are paid well. Look at salaries city by city & you will see a great discrepancy. Not many nurses in this country are earning what you are earning. Neither of you are being paid what you are worth. It sounds like youre saying that nurses in the US should not object to their continued salary compression because nurses in other countries are paid even less. Lets just chalk that one up to lack of sleep. ; )

Sweet dreams.

-jt · Nov 20, 2001

YES!! And THATS why the American Hospital Association is over in DC spending billions of $$$ lobbying hard to push through laws the ANA & others are fighting against that would allow facilities to do just that on an even greater scale than they ever have before.

The idea IS to not spend any real resources fixing up the place - just bring over people who HAVE to keep the job once they take it no matter what.

The law is that these nurses must be paid the same & given the same benefits as any other staff RN. That however hasnt stopped employers from violating those rules before. Several have been fined & have had to pay back wages to those nurses,.... but only after these facilities were caught & turned in to the authorities.

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 20, 2001

Jt,

Yes, right on.

As I was stating in my posts thus far(the above quote is from one of mine), it is thier intention. The end-game.

There will be cries of racism against those who oppose any bill that targets money for immigration. That's because they really don't have an argument about the issue. They are in favor of it but can't articulate a good argument(because there isn't one) and the race card is what they play if they don't have a hand to show. I was repeatedly pummeled with it even though other posters made the argument that I wasn't saying anything racist. They were not responded to. When I would ask them a direct question pertaining to the issue they would fall silent. That's how you beat the race card. I don't know how that would be done in a political sense, but it seems the hospitals pushing for the bill will have to make some argument. It only makes sense that they will put a racial or humanitarian spin on it because that's what people that are too lazy to think for themselves usually fall for. Those people are the constituents of those that would oppose it.

I think that the poster that you quoted about the wages being so low was inferring that we should give them a chance(foreign nurses) to have a better oppourtunity. That would fall under the humanitarian angle.

Fine let them come. I've got no problem with that. I just don't want to pay for it. They already have that. It's just not funded by new legislation. The welfare system is already well suited with special exemptions for those that either aren't or wont become U.S. citizens.

As long as there are people like you to bring it to the attention of those that will listen with thier heads instead of thier hearts and see past the rhetoric. Then at least we'll have a fighting chance.

Thank you.

Brad,

Middle class America

shandi · Nov 20, 2001

>

Dear Mr. Peeps, I was told that I was not welcome on this site, however it did not mean that I was barred from reading what is posted on this site. I hope that I will not be stepping on too many peoples toes by posting this one last time. In saying that you were saying some rather racist things might have been a tad harsh, I had an issue with the way you kept refferring to these poor, ignorant minorities (American) my issue was not that of the foreign nurses and their education, or lack thereof as perceived by some.

In these poor communities where they have these scores and scores of scholarships for these poor minorities so that they can try to get an education, am I ignorant enough to think that might help in the push for 'American' nurses? Why then criticize the minorities for trying to get an education with help whether it be as an CNA or anything else, an educated country is a powerful country.

And like I said before, in earlier posts I may have vented, but in someone I know being a foreign nurse who was treated badly and said enough was enough, as other foreign nurses would say too, sometimes just because you were offered what you think is a cushy job and it ends up being a place where they treat you like crap and use you like a donkey it doesn't mean you will take forever. Okay I've said my piece, Mr. Peeps, you can lambast me as much as you want, I'm sure that is your strong opinion and you are very much entitled to it.

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 20, 2001

Posted by shandi,

" I had an issue with the way you kept refferring to these poor, ignorant minorities " / End quote.

Shandi,

On what post did I write this? When did I call the poor "ignorant"......cut and paste the post or don't try to quote someone from memory. It makes you look like your'e making things up to be spiteful.

You missed the point of my comments because you are bitter about something else and ready to pounce.

In a nutshell............There should be nursing scholarships.

Not nursing scholarships if you are a certain color. Not nursing scholarships if you are a single mother. If you are from another country. If you are working class poor.

If you want(not need) money to attend school for nursing and you can prove academic excellence then you are worthy of publicly funded education. If you are an immigrant, you should also be entitled to education money, but youv'e gotta show me you want to be a citizen and my tax dollars aren't going to fund your career in another country by becoming one.

Why?

Because that will transcend all races and income levels, religions...ETC. It will give us the best and brightest of those whom are willing to be counted among the ranks.

Why don't they just do that and get the brightest and most diverse crossection of the country that government money ever bought?

Votes...............It won't get them any votes from paticular sectors. They might just end up with less votes:eek:

I'm not going to attack you shandi, but I am going to write things that you might percieve as being attacked. I have to defend what I say and apologize when I realize it's wrong. In both cases, I do it not because my words lacked authority, but rather because I want them to.

So now I am telling you, if you want to be considered intelligent, sometimes that means you have to admit you were ignorant.

If you want people to listen to what you have to say, then you must show them that you are listening to what they have to say.

My advice: Look for the true meaning in these posts on this board before responding. I myself have reacted hastely and had to retract my words, and I did apologize openly with an explanation.

If you don't your words will also lack authority.

Brad

-jt · Nov 21, 2001

oh they have. They went to Congress and said they 'cant find' nurses, 'there are no nurses available in the US', students 'are not choosing nursing', 'theres a severe nurse shortage' and then they use all the arguments WE have given THEM about the importance of safe staffing & quality care, etc. With that, Congress wanted to see exactly how bad the problem really is so it commissioned a Congressional Research Report on it.

The General Accounting Office in DC proved that there are 5 times more available nurses in this country who are not working in nursing or at all right now than there are vacant jobs for them. It proves that there is not a shortage in numbers of nurses right now. It is a 'maldistribution' - meaning that there are nurses but they are not going to work in hospitals. The Report was released to Congress in May 2001 & proves that we do have the numbers of nurses needed today - they just dont want the job. Working conditions were cited as the problem.

The Report blames "poor personnel decisons" for the current situation, not a real shortage of licensed nurses in the country, and suggests that the employers instead look towards repairing those working conditions in their own facilities that are causing this maldistribution of nurses in the first place:

http://www.ana.org/gova/federal/legis/107/gcrs.htm

Have the hospitals taken the suggestion? Of course not. They instead added more funds to their lobbying budget to push for their interest & stepped up their effort.

-jt · Nov 21, 2001

" Past nursing shortages were largely addressed with federal and local campaigns to improve the image of nursing and recruitment drives, including attracting nurses from other countries. Those strategies, which experts say are again needed, have usually worked in the short-term but have never been lasting........."

http://detnews.com/specialreports/2001/nursing/monlead/monlead.htm

SharonH, RN · Nov 21, 2001

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur

Sharon,
There's no reason to be snotty. I have only observed an inequality for the last ohhh.....ALL OF MY LIFE!

I can only express my condolences for the passing of the torch of racial discrimination.

Yes Brad you have made it clear that you see 'inequality' and 'racial discrimination' but I am sure we probably differ in who is at the receiving end of the discrimination and inequality, so your condolences are not necessary and you certainly aren't getting any sympathy on my end. It's too bad you thought I was "snotty" but I honestly believe you have set the tone with some of your comments about race card players and so on but now you want to cry foul when you receive responses in kind? Oh well........

I tend not to believe everything I see on the internet, but I do believe anythings possible from those idiots on capitol hill.

I don't believe everything I see on the internet either that is why I used verifiable and reliable news reports. Besides nothing in those two reports is new; I have read about it in the newspapers and seen news reports on TV. You didn't ? Well I guess you see only what you want to in order to support your view of supposed inequality and discrimination.

Do you believe there should be a college scholarship based on skin color alone?

NO.

Do you believe blacks and whites should be segregated or what?
I don't understand why you took all the time to post links, and then not discuss the issue. Is your oppinion just as unpopular?
Just because I didn't do web research or spend the day in a library to compile facts like I was going to court before I ever so carefuly posted, is no reason to slam me. I was only stating the facts as I have experienced them.

No I do not believe in official segregation. I did not discuss the issue further because really it isn't relevant to the discussion at hand but I saw a chance to enlighten you so I took it.

How would I know about something that's going on in frigging Missippi? How would I know about Traditional Black Colleges? There's no White Scholarship at the college I go to and I have never seen or heard of one in any place I have ever lived. I have visited hundreds of websites about scholarships and I subscibe to several news services...............Still, I have never heard of such a thing.

Well that's odd because all I did was type White students at Black colleges and I got dozens of links. It didn't take hours of research or preparation. But you know Brad, maybe if you looked outside of your little world then maybe you might realize that things are not as one-sided as you are determined to believe.

Why are you holding me accoutable for it?

I'm not. But perhaps you shouldn't make statements of fact when the truth is that you don't know the whole story. Just like that little story about the student who you perceive as getting some special treatment based on the color of her skin and fears by the professor that any rebuke would result in a claim of racism. That is such crap. If that professor is truly afraid to deal a student because of that, then he/she is a FOOL and is probably not qualified to teach anyway. But perhaps, just perhaps you don't know the whole story. And that is my point.

Anyway,

I think getting a scholarship based on your skin color alone is disgusting.
Don't you?

It's unfortunate but that is what this society has spawned. At any rate, it really is NOT a burning issue in my life.

That's all. Happy Thanksgiving.

SharonH, RN · Nov 21, 2001

jt, I apologize because this exchange between Brad and myself has veered way off the subject.

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 21, 2001

Sharon,

I went to the Alcorn State University web site. There is no scholarship for white students. There is one for non-black students though. That's not really the one your citing as an argument is it?

I also typed "White students at black colleges" and really got nothing. I use the Exite web browser.

Which one did you use to look it up?

I did however type in "diversity scholarships" as Alcorn State titled them, and got plenty of results. No scholarships for "white students only" in the whole bunch.

Now, there's some "facts", but do I have ALL the information? No.

Have I formed an oppinion?

Unless you know of some authority on an analysis of white students at traditionaly black colleges that are enrolled on scholarship vs total white student enrollment vs black student enrollment, then I would say you pretty much just relied on what a reporter wrote on a website because I can't find it yet. If you can reference it without spitting poison at me, I would like to see it. Really.

You missed my original point because you were too busy cutting and pasting every word I wrote. :rolleyes:

I was commenting on the disparities of non-poor, non-ethnicity scholarships in relation to thier impact , or lack of, to balance the importation and compensation of yet, more poor ethnicities into an already overflowing taxpayer financed orgy of white-guilt. It is also that mechanism that feeds votes, and so goes the political focus.

So then it is relevant.

Brad

HemeNP, MSN, RN, NP · Nov 21, 2001

I believe all of our family members benefit from what we earn from our daily toils. so what's the big deal that foreign trained nurses are pre occupied sending money to their families back home? where else would they send it? it is not a fair generalization that foreign trained nurses are content of low wages and just accept it as manna from heaven. if that is the case, i would not see scores of foreign trained nurses joining labor unions. it shows of their discontent as well with current labor conditions. and forgn trnd nurses would not bother to get evaluated for salary increases, get certifications to get better pay rates, and specialize to further the cause of nursing and also to get better pay rates. foreign nurses are not money grubbing nurses. the sole discontent of non foreign trained nurses just explains money is important to everyone to get around. we should all come together as nurses, whatever ethnic background or manner of going here to the US and get our minds together to get better working conditions. educating ourselves is the best way to solve the problem. it's not about closing the doors of America because it is with this open door that America came into being. And to all those who say that importing foreign trained nurses is not the solution, then maybe we would risk the closing down of the transplant unit, icu, oncology, and medical surgical units of the hospital where i work because they are manned by foreign trained nurses and whos nurse managers are foreign trained as well. CNA has made a big difference in our working conditions. Proof that education and speaking up is the true solution to this proble. Kaiser Southern California is largely manned by foreign trained nurses. SEIU (Labor Union)in Los Angeles has afforded better working conditions for Kaiser employees. It is our united voice as nurses of the community that matters. I hope we would be shouting for the cause and not against each other.

p/s. i have a lot of korean and japanese patients who only speak their language. i am thankful to work with very competent and output driven korean nurses. they are better translators than the AT&T translators. they are nurses in the first place.